JOHN YANG: Good evening.

I'm John Yang.

Geoff Bennett and Amna Nawaz are away.

On the "News Hour" tonight: a shakeup in Ukraine's leadership.

The top aide to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy resigns, as a corruption scandal rattles .

President Trump vows to stop immigration from what he calls Third World countries after the fatal National Guard shooting blocks from the White House.

And on this Black Friday, we offer some tips for holiday shopping in a year when prices are rising, partly due to tariffs.

ANNEMARIE CONTE, Wirecutter: We want everybody to just take a breath.

And you can do a little bit of research and you can look at price tracking apps to see what the historical pricing is.

(BREAK) JOHN YANG: Welcome to the "News Hour."

We begin tonight with a political earthquake in Ukraine.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, the country's second most powerful person, has been forced to resign amid a corruption scandal.

This comes as Ukraine is enmeshed in negotiations with the Trump administration on a possible end to Russia's war on Ukraine.

Special correspondent Jack Hewson is in Kyiv.

Jack, who is this chief of staff and why is this such a big deal?

JACK HEWSON: Well, John, Andriy Yermak, as you mentioned, was President Zelenskyy's chief of staff and essentially the second most powerful man in the country.

Zelenskyy came to power on the back of a landslide election in 2019 and, with that authority, centralized power around the president's office.

And Yermak was a very big part of that.

Officially, Ukraine is a hybrid, premier-presidential system.

But under Zelenskyy and Yermak, it's taken on a much more of a top-down executive-dominated shape.

And under wartime powers, which include martial law and the freezing of any presidential or parliamentary elections, that's centralized even more.

And as one anti-corruption activist put it to me earlier this evening, Zelenskyy is the face of government, while Yermak was the brains.

So for Yermak to be gone is huge.

JOHN YANG: Corruption.

There is an embezzlement scandal that's enmeshing many high-ranking officials in Zelenskyy's circle.

Tell us about that.

JACK HEWSON: Well, the scandal is about an investigation by the anti-corruption authorities called Operation Midas, which has resulted in a string of high-level raids and charges over the last month.

There have been a laundry list of high-ranking Cabinet officials, including a former deputy prime minister, who have either been charged or named.

The cornerstone figure in all of this is a man named Timur Mindich.

He's the former business partner of Zelenskyy, with whom he set up a media company before he was president.

And Mindich and his broader group of appointees and ministers are accused of embezzling $100 million worth of public money that was supposed to be spent on the energy sector.

Instead, it was embezzled allegedly through inflating infrastructure procurement contracts and siphoning off funds.

So, right now, with Ukraine under daily bombardment by Russian drones and missiles, which are blowing up electricity stations and substations, causing blackouts, as you can imagine, Ukrainians are absolutely furious that, at this time of suffering, these Cabinet ministers have allegedly been stealing public money that should have been spent on fixing this electricity grid, instead of enriching themselves.

Authorities have not yet confirmed if the raid is related to Operation Midas, but following his raid, Yermak has gone ahead and resigned nonetheless.

JOHN YANG: How is all this or how might all this affect efforts to end the war?

JACK HEWSON: Well, essentially, this weakens the Ukrainian negotiating position.

It allows the Kremlin to paint Ukraine as a corrupt and unreliable partner to its allies.

It allows Putin to draw an equivalent between Ukraine and far more corrupt or dictatorial regimes, and it throws the peace negotiation into temporary disarray, as Yermak was also Zelenskyy's lead negotiator.

But it's also bad for Ukraine's image with its allies.

One major criteria for Ukrainian aid has been to eradicate corruption in this country, and this scandal proves very clearly that that's not what's happened.

And at this point -- and this is a point that President Zelenskyy himself made tonight in his evening address announcing the departure of his most valued aide.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, Ukrainian President (through translator): To preserve our internal strength, there must be no reasons to be distracted at anything else except for defense of Ukraine.

I don't want anybody to be questioning Ukraine, and that's why we have today's decisions.

JACK HEWSON: And many perceive this weakened position that Ukraine now finds itself in as a complicating factor in why the Trump administration is able to push hard for a peace deal on terms that many perceive to be too favorable to Russia -- John.

JOHN YANG: Special correspondent Jack Hewson in Kyiv, thank you very much.

Tonight, more details are coming to light about this week's shooting of two West Virginia National Guard members, one of them fatally, just blocks from the White House, and new questions are emerging about the shooter's motives and what the attack could mean for immigrants across the country.

Our coverage begins with White House correspondent Liz Landers.

LIZ LANDERS: Late last night, a vehicle procession in Washington, D.C., honoring 20-year-old U.S.

Army Specialist Sarah Beckstrom, who died yesterday after being shot near the White House on Wednesday.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: She's no longer with us.

She's looking down at us right now.

LIZ LANDERS: From his residence in Florida, President Trump announced Beckstrom's death and was asked by reporters whether he'd attend her funeral.

DONALD TRUMP: I haven't thought about it yet, but it certainly is something I could conceive of.

I love West Virginia.

I won West Virginia by one of the biggest margins of any president anywhere.

LIZ LANDERS: The president was also asked about the alleged shooter, 29-year-old Rahmanullah Lakanwal, an Afghan national who was granted asylum in the United States after working with U.S.

forces in Afghanistan.

DONALD TRUMP: He went cuckoo.

I mean, he went nuts.

And that happens too.

It happens too often with these people.

LIZ LANDERS: Beckstrom was shot along with 24-year-old Air Force Staff Sergeant Andrew Wolfe, also of West Virginia's National Guard.

JEANINE PIRRO, U.S.

Attorney for the District of Columbia: Our hearts go out.

LIZ LANDERS: Earlier today, the U.S.

attorney for Washington, D.C., Jeanine Pirro spoke on FOX about the new charges filed against the suspect.

JEANINE PIRRO: We are upgrading the initial charges of assault to murder in the first degree.

There will be no stone unturned in this case.

We will know everything about what happened.

LIZ LANDERS: The president and his allies also took to social media, with Trump promising to -- quote -- "permanently pause migration from all Third World countries."

And his deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, tweeted -- quote -- "that migrants and their descendants recreate the conditions and terrors of their broken homelands."

The shooter's motive for the attack remains unclear.

WOMAN: We came to honor Ms.

Beckstrom and Mr.

Wolfe.

LIZ LANDERS: But back in her home state of West Virginia, vigils were held last night and today for Beckstrom, who enlisted in the National Guard in 2023.

Her father posted this message on Facebook, writing -- quote -- "My baby girl has passed to glory."

West Virginia's Governor Patrick Morrisey said 24-year-old Staff Sergeant Andrew Wolfe, who was also shot in the attack, remains in critical condition.

For more on the president's call for immigration reforms, I'm joined by David Bier.

He's the director of immigration studies at the Libertarian Cato Institute.

Thank you for joining us today, David.

DAVID BIER, Director of Immigration Studies, Cato Institute: Thanks for having me.

LIZ LANDERS: OK, let's start with some of these social media posts from the president.

He wrote last night in a pair of posts demeaning immigrants and calling the country's immigration policies stupid.

What's your reaction to that?

DAVID BIER: Well, first of all, this was a horrific attack.

No one condones it.

This is an individual who should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Unfortunately, what the president has taken away from this attack is that all of 53 million, as he says, immigrants to the United States, legal or illegal, are now seen as suspicious, as people who should be driven out of the United States, even denaturalized.

If you look at the rhetoric in that post, he can't find a single good thing to say about any of the immigrants from any country in the world.

And that's really what's different.

What I see here is, the president has for a long time talked about the problems with certain types of immigration, with illegal immigration, with refugees and others.

But this was really the broadest attack that I can remember on the immigrant population overall, both legal and illegal, even the naturalized citizens who have taken the oath to the Constitution of the United States.

LIZ LANDERS: Trump's post had a series of pledged reforms, including, but not limited to a permanent pause on migration from all Third World countries.

We heard that a few moments ago.

Remove anyone who is not a net asset to the United States.

End all federal benefits and subsidies to noncitizens and denaturalize migrants who undermine domestic tranquility.

How much of that can he follow through on?

DAVID BIER: Well, certainly, he's already trying to carry out the largest mass deportation campaign in the history of the United States.

He wants to deport millions and millions of people who are here illegally.

So now he's just adding to that campaign promise with trying to deport people who are in the country legally.

Now, taking away someone who has illegal permanent residence, their status, is quite difficult.

You have to prove your case against them.

You have to bring that before an immigration judge and layout exactly what immigration law they violated.

And what he's talking about here, net asset, all this stuff, there is some ambiguity in the law, but there's not that much ambiguity, and it will be difficult for him to actually follow through on that promise and effectively deport most of the legal immigrants in the United States.

LIZ LANDERS: The treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, is saying that his agency is going to issue proposed regulations clarifying that the refunded portions of certain individual income tax benefits are no longer available to illegal and other non-qualified aliens.

What benefits do those without legal status receive?

And do we know whether what Bessent posted about will have any substantial impact?

DAVID BIER: Usually, these benefits are based on the Social Security numbers that are available to them.

So, you submit your application for benefits along with your income tax return, checking that box that you have a Social Security number that is work-eligible, which is the basis for the refund or otherwise.

So I certainly support this type of proposal in terms of policy.

Unfortunately, Congress is the one who sets the rules for this, and they just went through this tax reform bill that they put forward and they didn't go all the way with this idea effectively barring most noncitizens from those.

And so really what he's advocating for is Congress to change the law.

We will see if that happens.

LIZ LANDERS: What trends have we seen in immigration recently?

And what impact could these changes that we're seeing from the president being proposed, what could those have -- impact on these immigration trends we're seeing?

DAVID BIER: Well, ultimately, the president's proposals from day one have been to restrict legal immigration.

He's come out with a number of different ideas on those lines, including the total shutdown of the refugee program, a ban on most immigration from 19 different countries, restrictions on the H-1B high-skilled visa.

So, across all the different categories of immigration that we have, he's looking to restrict.

This is the first time he's said an outright ban.

And when you think about who gets most legal immigrant visas to come to the United States, it is spouses of U.S.

citizens.

That's going to be the number one category that's targeted by a broad-based absolute ban on legal immigration to the United States.

And that's really cutting at the heart of family values and a lot of the other things that conservatives like to talk about.

LIZ LANDERS: David Bier from the Cato Institute, thank you so much for joining us this evening this holiday weekend.

We appreciate it.

DAVID BIER: Thank you.

Of course.

JOHN YANG: In the day's other news: President Trump also said today he would cancel all executive actions that former President Biden signed using an autopen.

That's a device that replicates someone's signature.

Both Democratic and Republican presidents have used autopens, including Mr.

Trump, though he says he's used it only for unimportant papers.

A Justice Department legal opinion dating back decades authorized its use.

President Trump had previously ordered an investigation into his predecessor's use of the device, which Biden's months ago said was a distraction.

And Mr.

Trump said on social media that he plans to pardon Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former president of Honduras.

In 2024, a U.S.

court convicted Hernandez on drug trafficking and weapons charges and sentenced him to 45 years in prison.

Hernandez served two terms as Honduran president from 2014 until 2022.

In the same post, Mr.

Trump threw his support behind the nation's conservative presidential candidate and said that, if he doesn't win, he will stop sending aid to the Central American nation.

Police in Hong Kong have arrested eight more people involved with renovating the apartment complex that caught fire earlier this week, killing at least 128 people.

The massive blaze wasn't fully extinguished until this morning, some 40 hours after it started.

Now firefighters are searching apartment by apartment, with close to 200 people still missing.

That includes nearly 90 bodies that haven't been identified yet.

One former resident pointed out the charred remains of her home and said she's worried about her neighbors.

MISS YU, Hong Kong Resident (through translator): My family is OK.

We have many relatives, so we're fine.

But we don't know if others have anyone looking after them.

I really want to put down my phone and not look at any news, not read any information, but I can't.

My heart just feels so heavy.

JOHN YANG: Authorities say the fire started on scaffolding on the lower levels of one of the buildings and spread quickly because of flammable foam panels on windows.

This weekend, flags in Hong Kong will fly at half-staff for a period of mourning.

Elsewhere in Asia, floods have ravaged several nations, so far claiming well over 300 lives.

Torrential rains battered Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand after a rare tropical storm formed in the Malacca Strait.

A separate cyclone hit Sri Lanka more than 1,000 miles to the west.

In Southern Thailand's largest city today, receding floodwaters exposed piles of abandoned cars caked in mud.

On Sumatra, landslides carved through Indonesia's remote mountain towns.

Those who survived recalled a narrow escape.

FAHRI FANDI, Indonesian Flood Survivor (through translator): I heard a roaring sound that made me go outside.

I shouted to warn people to get out of their houses and evacuate.

After that, I ran to higher ground.

I saw the floodwater carrying pieces of wood and other debris sweeping away houses until they were washed away.

JOHN YANG: Officials are intensifying recovery efforts, but many Indonesians remain without electricity, food and other critical supplies.

The tropical storm in that region has since weakened after moving out to sea, but Sri Lanka is bracing for even more flooding this weekend.

Back here at home, the Thanksgiving holiday is winding down, so it's time for what could be a treacherous trip home for some.

More than 50 million Americans were under some sort of winter weather advisory today, stretching from Idaho to the Great Lakes.

Residents in Upstate New York spent their day digging out of heavy lake-effect snow.

The National Weather Service issued travel warnings in the Northeast, where more snow along with gusty winds could make roads slippery and visibility poor.

And in a shortened Black Friday trading session, stocks ended with across-the-board gains.

The Dow Jones industrial average rose nearly 300 points, the NASDAQ added 150 points, as most tech stocks closed higher, and the S&P 500 capped off a fifth straight day of gains for the major indices.

Still to come on the "News Hour": Jonathan Capehart and Peter Wehner on the possible implications of the National Guard shooting in Washington, D.C.

; we visit a long-overlooked marvel of ancient indigenous engineering in Ohio; and the first episode of our brand-new video podcast "Settle In," lessons for today from the 1929 stock market crash.

The Internet has, of course, revolutionized holiday shopping, and now worries about the labor market and the effect tariffs are having are prompting even more Americans to search online for holiday deals.

Stephanie Sy tells us how sellers and customers are navigating this Black Friday weekend.

STEPHANIE SY: President Trump introduced some tariffs on imports in his first term, but, in his second term, the administration's aggressive tariffs on a wide range of imports have affected manufacturers, sellers and customers.

Frequent revisions to what products are and aren't exempt from the tariffs have only created more uncertainty.

So how does one approach their holiday shopping this year?

For help with navigating this and finding the best deals, I'm joined by Annemarie Conte, a deputy editor at New York Times' Wirecutter who wrote a piece on this very topic.

Annemarie, thank you so much for joining the "News Hour."

So, just to remind viewers, tariffs are, of course, basically taxes on imported goods, and that tax is often passed on to consumers.

How big are the price increases you have been tracking at Wirecutter in the last year?

ANNEMARIE CONTE, Wirecutter: It's been pretty scattershot.

And I think part of that is because these tariffs seem to be an ever-moving target.

And so the manufacturers have had a really hard time planning.

And so they have tried to absorb as much as they can, but, according to our tracking, we have seen as little as a dollar or two, up to $20, $25, depending on the cost of the item.

STEPHANIE SY: Help us understand to what degree we have seen tariffs passed down to retail consumers.

ANNEMARIE CONTE: It's been pretty significant.

We know now, according to New York Times reporting, that 50 percent of all U.S.

imports are affected by the tariffs, and a lot of manufacturers were able to bring stuff stateside and hold it in warehousing here to avoid some of those tariffs.

But as that stock depletes, now they're forced to pay them.

So they are trying to warn people as much as possible if there's an additional cost and if they can't absorb it.

This is especially happening with direct-to-consumer brands that don't have the buying power of the larger brands.

STEPHANIE SY: Black Friday sales, of course, start earlier nowadays.

Is now still the best time to get blockbuster deals?

And do those deals mean more, given that prices seem to have gone up at least a little bit across the board?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: So the deals aren't going to be the best ever.

And that is because of these price increases.

But it seems like a lot of these retailers have saved their best pricing for Black Friday.

So what we have seen is that it started earlier, it started as early as Monday, and it's going to continue through Cyber Monday.

So it'll be almost a full week of deals.

STEPHANIE SY: And are there certain categories where we might see better bargains than others based on where the goods are manufactured?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: It's hard to say.

The one thing that we definitely recommend is that, if you need or want any electronics, now is the time to buy it.

There's a number of factors.

The tariffs are sort of a catch-all of -- involving price increases, but there's a lot of factors, including A.I.

driving up the price of chips.

So if you need or want any electronics or headphones, laptops, things like that, gaming counsels, now is really the time to buy because you're going to get the best pricing, and we expect the prices to only increase in 2026.

STEPHANIE SY: What about on toys?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: Toys have really been affected.

It's significant because a lot of toys are manufactured in China.

So what we do is, we track prices every day of the year, and so we only post the best prices on the best products.

And what we're seeing now is, there are discounts now because it is such a heavy gift-giving category.

STEPHANIE SY: A lot of mass market items are, of course, available at multiple retailers.

What's the best way for consumers to compare prices?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: Yes, these retailers will definitely price-match each other.

And it's important to do a little bit of research.

One thing that we think is incredibly important is not to panic.

So you're going to be getting a lot of signals, a lot of marketing language, countdown timers, lightning deals, and we want everybody to just take a breath.

And you can do a little bit of research and you can look at price tracking apps to see what the historical pricing is, or you could use a resource like Wirecutter, which does that for you.

STEPHANIE SY: You know, there's all these tricky psyops to make, like, sales and deals look like great deals, but sometimes the tariffs are more obvious, right?

In your article, you described instances where customers ended up getting billed for the tariffs.

And I have heard instances myself where the tariff bill was greater than the item that was actually bought.

Where would you put up the buyer beware signs when it comes to online shopping?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: I think it's really important to know where an item is being shipped from, and you can't always tell.

But if you're shopping a site like Etsy, you can actually filter down to U.S.-based sellers, and that will help mitigate that.

We have definitely -- Wirecutter buys thousands of items per year, and we have definitely seen that happen here, where the shipper is going to give you a bill.

It's usually about $30, $35, in our experience, including fees, because they also have to tack on their fees on top of the tariff.

And so we have seen that they will not release the product until you pay the bill.

STEPHANIE SY: In your article, you mentioned a great way to get around tariffs, and that is secondhand shopping.

That happens to be the way I get most of my clothes.

But is that really something you think will be more popular in this tariff environment when it comes to gift-giving this season?

ANNEMARIE CONTE: I definitely think so.

I think the secondary market is really important to that.

And know your audience, right, if you are giving a gift to somebody who wouldn't appreciate it.

But I do think so many more people do love a pre-loved item.

And so you can look on eBay or Poshmark or all sorts of secondhand sites or thrift stores, things like that, to find something that's wonderful and like a wonderful delight as a gift or for yourself.

STEPHANIE SY: Annemarie Conte with Wirecutter at The New York Times, some timely advice.

Thank you, and happy holidays.

ANNEMARIE CONTE: Happy holidays.

Thank you so much for having me.

JOHN YANG: The president is responding to the shooting of two National Guard members by an Afghan national on the streets of Washington with an even tougher crackdown on immigration.

For analysis of that the rest of the week, we turn now to Capehart and Wehner.

That's Jonathan Capehart of MS NOW, and Peter Wehner, a contributing writer at "The Atlantic" and a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum.

David Brooks is away this evening.

This is still the big domestic story as the week ends.

Pete, I wonder how you -- what you make of the way the president responded.

He immediately sent in 500 more troops.

He immediately blamed the Biden administration for admitting the alleged shooter, and then cut off -- essentially cut off a lot of immigration.

PETER WEHNER, "The Atlantic": Yes, I'd say he reacted predictably and awfully.

He predicted -- as he is.

This was sort of the Trump DNA kicking in.

I should say first that I just find a kind of ghoulishness that happens, when people die, tragedies in life, and the way that the people who die and the victims are turned into political pawns.

That's always left me kind of disquieted.

That's particularly the case here and now.

But, look, Trump is taking advantage.

This is going back to the fever swamp from which he came.

His first announcement when he -- for president in 2015, when he came down the golden escalator, was what?

It was an attack on Mexicans, where he said they were drug dealers and criminals and rapists.

Then, during the campaign, he said that he was going to ban Muslims from coming into the country.

And that united his base.

So I think he's returning to form, but I think it's broader now.

And in this case, with the Afghans that he's attacking, these are people who either helped the United States during the war or were targeted by the Taliban themselves.

And this was an act of American decency and compassion.

And to take that and turn it around and to go after these - - this weak and vulnerable people and then broaden it to a wider attack on immigrants is a really ugly thing to see.

JOHN YANG: Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, this is not a surprise.

Anyone who's been paying attention to President Trump would have expected this reaction.

To Peter's point, he's been saying these things, these anti-immigrant, xenophobic things since he started his - - since he entered the political arena.

Go all the way back to the birther controversy with President Obama.

So the idea that he now, in a second term where he feels unleashed, unfettered, is surrounded by an administration that is enabling him to do all the things he wants to do, the fact that he used a tragedy to sort of amp up what he was already trying to do, not shocking at all.

When it comes to bringing 500 more National Guard troops here to Washington, for what purpose?

I mean, originally, he said it's about crime.

Well, if you're really serious about crime, I think a functioning White House, a functioning Justice Department would work with local officials from the mayor and certainly the police chiefs to talk about, how can we help you with crime?

Even though, in a city like Washington and other large cities around the country, crime has been falling.

And so I think what we see is that the National Guard, to Peter's point, they have been -- it's sad when people who lose their lives are instantly used as political pawns.

But the National Guard, they have been used as pawns from the very beginning, brought in under the guise of crime, and then used for other things, the National Guard here used to beautify the parks.

That's not what they're for.

And so what the president is doing is, it's shameful, it's xenophobic, and in the end, it is going to hurt America's national security.

This perpetrator worked with the CIA in Afghanistan with the United States.

And we all know what he was doing.

He was helping us, furthering our national security interests.

JOHN YANG: Pete, do you want to add to that?

PETER WEHNER: No, I just underscore what Jonathan said.

This -- it's so central to understand about Donald Trump and I think his psychological makeup, which is that he seems to draw energy from hatred, from generating hatred toward other people.

And this capacity to unleash the dark passions and the dark emotions, we have never seen anything like it, certainly in modern American history, maybe in all of American history.

And the way he -- the capacity that he has to amplify that is extraordinary.

And the one other thing I would add to it is, he does know what he's doing in this sense.

His base responds to this.

This is a base that has been morally deformed, and that was at the beginning of the Trump administration.

But 10 years of this has turned it into an even worse manifestation.

JOHN YANG: Jonathan, another point.

This week, we saw three big cases, high-profile cases, dismissed in federal courts, the last remaining election interference case against Mr.

Trump in Georgia, the James Comey case, the former FBI director, and Letitia James, the former -- the New York attorney general.

What should we make of this?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: The wheels of justice are turning, and they're turning wildly in various directions.

When it comes to Georgia, we all heard it with -- in his own voice.

"All I need is 11, 780 votes, one more than we need."

That's election interference.

But because of inappropriate actions by the prosecutor, that was an avenue for the president and his legal team to get the result that they just got.

When it comes to former FBI Director James Comey and Attorney General -- state Attorney General Letitia James, this is malicious prosecution, and the courts saw that.

And, to me, it shows that at least the lower courts are sticking to the law, sticking to the Constitution and looking at the briefs that these -- that the prosecutors are bringing into court, which are not, let's say, up to snuff.

But where my enthusiasm for the judicial branch gets tempered is, the president goes to court, and his first action after losing in court is to go right to the Supreme Court.

And I am still not comfortable that the Supreme Court will take a look at the Comey and James cases and side with the lower courts.

I'm just not convinced of it yet.

JOHN YANG: Peter?

PETER WEHNER: Yes, I agree.

It's -- Jonathan said it was malicious, which it was.

It was also incompetent.

And I'm not sure which case more than -- one more than the other.

I mean, this thing was thrown out.

It wasn't even on the merits.

It was that the prosecutor was chosen, had been improperly chosen.

But this was, again, as all of these things seem to be, a kind of window into the heart and soul of Donald Trump.

And, here, it touches on this issue which is awfully high on the list of things that I think ought to worry us, which is the president of the United States, commander in chief, using the extraordinary power at his disposal to target people, the weaponization, in this case, of DOJ and FBI, to destroy people that he disagrees with.

I mean, that is how police states happen.

Now, I don't think we're in a police state, but that's only because Donald Trump hasn't gotten his way yet.

And, as Jonathan was referring to, I mean, the courts are the one institution right now in American life that has stood up to him, not always, but in some cases.

But we still have three years left, and this has a lot to play itself out.

And it's not clear, if Trump ever decides to defy a court order, including a Supreme Court order, how that gets arbitrated.

So we have still got a ways to go.

JOHN YANG: What do you think, Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I mean, you ask Judge Boasberg whether his orders, in terms of supporting Venezuelan migrants out of the country, against his orders saying no planes should take off, and if planes are in the air, they should turn around.

And he was defied on that.

So, they are defying court orders.

It's just a matter of, when will the courts take that step to hold them accountable?

JOHN YANG: We don't have much time left.

I'm sorry to ask this question.

But we have got such a polarized nation, and we're going into the holidays.

How do you deal -- Peter, let me start with you.

How do you deal with uncomfortable conversations?

PETER WEHNER: Well, I guess one is whether you can avoid them, and, sometimes,that's necessary.

I will say -- and my wife has been very helpful on this.

In my experience, I don't obviously do this perfectly, but when it's worked, it is when you have a conversation with someone and you genuinely listen to them, and you seek to learn their story, to find out why they have turned out where they are.

So it's not the reflex to turn it into a debate.

It's rather to try and connect with people on a human level, and then to remind ourselves not to dehumanize, and politics is not defining to who we are.

It matters.

We're in politics because we think it does matter, but, in the end, it's not the most important thing, and we have to have civility in that approach.

JOHN YANG: Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I would say conversations are two-way streets, that it is not just incumbent upon, say, someone from my political perspective to sit and listen to the other person.

The other person needs to sit and listen to me, sit and listen to us.

And if -- and we are not, I don't think, duty bound or even morally required to sit and listen to someone who says things that denigrates our humanity, that is offensive to us.

We have every right to push back.

It's on that person whether they are the ones who are going to listen and understand where we're coming from.

JOHN YANG: Jonathan, you got the last word because we're out of time.

(LAUGHTER) JOHN YANG: Peter Wehner and Jonathan Capehart, thank you very much.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, John.

PETER WEHNER: Thanks a lot, John.

JOHN YANG: On this Native American Heritage Day, we examine a long overlooked marvel of ancient engineering that had been tucked away beneath a golf course near Columbus, Ohio.

Some archaeologists say it's on par with Stonehenge, but its struggle for recognition spanned decades, ending only recently with validation as the state's only World Heritage Site.

Stephanie Sy is back with that story.

BRAD LEPPER, Senior Archaeologist, Ohio History Connection: So we're approaching the avenue, the parallel walls that connect the Observatory Circle with the octagon beyond.

STEPHANIE SY: From the ground where archaeologist Brad Lepper stands, you can't really appreciate its complexity.

It's the view from above that is the view from above that reveals the site in Newark, Ohio's astonishing geometry.

The Octagon Earthworks are composed of vast soil mounts, a perfect 20-acre circle connecting to a perfectly symmetrical 50-acre octagon, large enough to fit four Roman Colosseums.

The intricate design mirrors the moon's 18.6-year journey across the sky, its central axis meticulously aligned to the spot where the moon rises at its northernmost point.

BRAD LEPPER: And they're not just close to being precise.

They're very, very precise.

STEPHANIE SY: What's even more impressive is when it was constructed.

BRAD LEPPER: About 2,000 years ago.

The span of time we're talking about is like 1 C.E.

all the way up to 400 C.E.

That's about the time of the peak of the Roman Empire.

STEPHANIE SY: There are still many unknowns about who these Native American builders were.

It's a long-gone ancient cultural network spread across the Eastern United States that researchers now call the Hopewell.

BRAD LEPPER: These people lived in scattered little communities, and thousands and thousands of those communities probably came together here, but they have left no written records.

I think this was like Mecca or like Jerusalem as a pilgrimage center, but, without a Koran or a Bible, we don't have the knowledge of who these ceremony leaders were.

What was the vision that compelled people to come here for hundreds of miles?

STEPHANIE SY: But, to Lepper, who spent almost 40 years studying them, the earthworks themselves speak volumes about their builders, who lived roughly 1,500 years before Galileo.

BRAD LEPPER: They were geometers, mathematicians.

They were astronomers.

They were geniuses.

I mean, they were soil scientists.

They knew what soils to use to build enduring earthworks.

GLENNA WALLACE, Chief, Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma: When I go to those mounds, I can hear those ancestors singing.

They didn't have steel.

They didn't have concrete.

They didn't have metal.

What they had was mother earth.

STEPHANIE SY: Glenna Wallace is the chief of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma, descendants of the Hopewell people.

They were forced out of Ohio after the passage of the Indian Removal Act of 1830.

GLENNA WALLACE: Ohio truly didn't have a voice, a Native American voice, a Native American presence.

STEPHANIE SY: Without that voice, these mounds were buried over time beneath railroads, development and housing.

Today, of the dozens of Hopewell earthworks that once stood across Ohio, less than half remain preserved.

GLENNA WALLACE: Will they never be content until they have eliminated every trace of our ancestors?

That's what's going through my mind.

STEPHANIE SY: The Octagon Earthwork was spared only because of how the site was used.

BRAD LEPPER: This is part of the golf course infrastructure.

There was even a time when they teed off from the top of the mound.

STEPHANIE SY: For more than a century, the site was taken over by a golf course.

BRAD LEPPER: It was such a contrast to have golfing going on in a place that's like Notre Dame Cathedral or something.

It always was jarring.

GLENNA WALLACE: The first thought that came to my mind was the biblical scripture, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Earthworks are sacred to us.

And to then look out and see that those mounds had a golf course on top of them, I can't explain the disappointment, the hurt, the lack of respect that I felt on behalf of my ancestors.

STEPHANIE SY: Over the years, the golf course became a members only country club, which limited access to the historic site.

JENNIFER AULTMAN, Director of Historic Sites and Museums, Ohio History Connection: It was very much that sort of private aspect that made it really challenging for us even to do things like research.

STEPHANIE SY: Jennifer Aultman is the director of historic sites and museums at Ohio History Connection, which hatched a plan for the long overlooked ancient mounds more than two decades ago.

JENNIFER AULTMAN: There was sort of this thought that, like, this place is as significant as Stonehenge and Machu Picchu, and nobody seems to understand that.

And if it was a World Heritage Site, like, people would have to understand that.

STEPHANIE SY: But to become a World Heritage Site isn't easy.

It's a list that includes the Great Wall of China and the Pyramids of Giza.

It took Ohio History Connection more than 20 years, including a lengthy legal battle for control of the site, before the moment arrived in 2023.

DR.

ABDULELAH AL-TOKHAIS, World Heritage Committee: Adopted.

Congratulations to the United States, America.

STEPHANIE SY: At the World Heritage Committee hearing in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, eight of Ohio's Hopewell mounds were put on the list.

JENNIFER AULTMAN: The gavel came down, and it was in that moment a World Heritage Site.

That was moving enough.

But to be in that room with representatives from all over the world and have Chief Glenna, whose people were forcibly removed from Ohio, speak, that was the moment that it really came home, like, how important this was that we did this.

GLENNA WALLACE: They were not just geniuses.

They were uncommon geniuses.

Their genius lives on today in many descendant tribes.

STEPHANIE SY: What do you think the significance is of having it be designated as a World Heritage Site?

GLENNA WALLACE: It certainly gives us as Native Americans a wonderful feeling of pride.

And I am so proud of the changes that are occurring in Ohio.

The people are beginning to recognize what they have in their communities, and they want to do the right thing.

There was just a lack of knowledge, a lack of information.

STEPHANIE SY: Earlier this year, Octagon Earthworks opened to the public for the first time as a World Heritage Site.

Visitors poured in, and they have kept coming.

And what they learn and see here may contribute to a fuller understanding of Native American civilizations.

BRAD LEPPER: For so long, our society has regarded Indians as savages.

They were here in the way.

They had to be removed and forcibly removed into the West so that these lands could be civilized.

But the irony of that is that there's evidence of this wonderful civilization that was here 2,000 years before Europeans got here.

STEPHANIE SY: An ancient astronomical observatory in Ohio that will now be preserved for the ages.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Stephanie Sy.

JOHN YANG: This week, we're launching our new video podcast, "Settle In."

In the premiere episode, Amna Nawaz has a fascinating discussion with financial journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin about his new book, "1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and How It Shattered a Nation."

In their conversation, Sorkin describes how Wall Street titans persuaded everyday Americans to invest in the stock market using borrowed money.

AMNA NAWAZ: I want to underscore here what you lay out so well through stories in the book, which was this idea that, at the time, that big change of being able to buy stock on credit, that was a huge shift, right?

How dramatic was that shift, when people were suddenly able to do that?

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, Author: Oh, that was a huge shift.

And, by the way, it was even a broader shift in America.

I mean, up until 1919... AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: ... taking a loan was considered like a moral sin.

It was something that only the grubby of the grubs would do.

It would be like going to a pawn shop.

It was really something that was looked down upon.

AMNA NAWAZ: Like culturally, right?

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: Culturally, culturally.

Just as a -- you did not want to be somebody who took on credit.

And what happened in 1919 was, General Motors decided they needed to sell more cars.

And how are they going to sell more cars?

They're going to start to loan people money.

And somehow people decided that that was acceptable because it was a big purchase.

And so if you're going to buy a car and you needed to take the loan from GM.

Well, then Sears Roebuck clocked what was going on and said, oh, goodness, people are willing to do this.

That's interesting.

We are now going to actually sell appliances and we will loan you money so that you can buy those appliances.

Again, some of those are expensive products.

And then folks like Charlie Mitchell on Wall Street see what's going on and say, ah, we can do this too.

And now we are going to democratize finance.

That was really the phrase during that period.

We're going to take finance away just from the elites and now make it available to everybody by loaning people money so that they can also play in the markets.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, there's a democratization of the financial world going on, but, of course, the little guy is always at a bit of a disadvantage.

And you outline some of these really shady practices that were engaged in by the bankers.

They would form sort of an investment pool, right?

Then they would drive up the stock price.

They would bring in ordinary investors, and then what?

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: A couple of very rich, wealthy, typically men got together, sometimes, by the way, in their wives' names for tax purposes, were effectively putting together a group that was going to run what might be described as a pump-and-dump scheme, where they would say, you're going to buy at $100, then the next person's going to buy in at $200, then $300, then $400.

And at some point, we all know the day that we're pulling the rug, meaning we're all going to sell at the same time.

But we're hoping that all of the little guys and everybody else who's not part of the scheme, they will buy up on top of us, so that we will be the winners and effectively they will be the losers.

It was almost like actors on a trading floor with their own instructions about what they're supposed to do at any given point.

It was shocking.

AMNA NAWAZ: And then ordinary investors, everyday Americans are just caught in the middle of all this?

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: Well, ultimately, that's what happened.

And the worst part about it is, it wasn't just that the stock market crashed in October.

And, by the way, I think our perception that the market dropped on one day is clearly wrong.

It actually happened over a series of days.

And then a whole bunch of other things happened that genuinely led to the Great Depression.

But as the stock market was dropping, it wasn't just that you were losing money insofar as the stock went from $50 to $30 or $40 and therefore you lost $10 or $20.

The problem was, because you had borrowed all that money, you were on the hook.

So, famously, Groucho Marx, who apparently, according to his son, was somebody who actually was very conservative about his money, at least thought he was, had been spending all of his time at this brokerage in Long Island trading constantly and being told, of course, by the broker, everything's going to be fine.

This is all -- this is the future.

You have to invest in this stuff.

Otherwise, you're going to be on the losing end of things.

Gets a call in the late October and says, you got to come down here.

You got to pay up your margin loan.

And he doesn't have the money.

And so what happens?

He ends up having to mortgage his home.

And so I think there was a generational almost scarring that took place during this period.

And it becomes very dramatic.

A whole bunch of people, some of the characters in the book ultimately kill themselves.

There are people who jump out of windows.

I don't tell the story in the book, but my grandfather was 11 years old during this period, and his older brother was actually a messenger boy down on Wall Street.

And he had taken my grandfather down there in October.

He actually missed a day of school.

And my grandfather watched somebody jump out the window.

This is after the crash.

And he would always tell us the story because he would always tell us that he would never buy stock.

He lived until he was 91 years old and never bought a share of any stock, no stock.

He kept the money.

AMNA NAWAZ: Because of what he lived through and what he witnessed.

ANDREW ROSS SORKIN: Because of what he witnessed, he would say: "Andrew, the stock market is not for us.

It's for these other people."

And so he bought bonds.

I think he probably kept some cash under his mattress.

But I think there was a whole generation of people that were psychologically scarred by this period, no doubt.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

JOHN YANG: You can hear and watch full episodes of "Settle In" on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your podcasts.

JOHN YANG: 'Tis the season to buy a Christmas tree, but it takes a lot of people and business planning to get that perfect tree all the way to your home.

PBS News digital video producer Tim McPhillips visited one stop along the route.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: You might say this is where the Christmas season truly begins, at a produce auction in the heart of Pennsylvania.

Freshly cut, the roughly 45,000 Christmas trees behind me are here for a single purpose, to be auctioned off in just a single day.

This isn't just any auction, though.

This one is billed as the largest Christmas tree auction in the world.

BEN COURTNEY, Buffalo Valley Produce Auction, Inc.

: The Christmas tree auction started in 1989.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: Ben Courtney is the operations manager at Buffalo Valley Produce Auction in Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania, which holds this event every year.

His father, Neil, is the auctioneer.

BEN COURTNEY: We had about 3,000 trees back then and it's been kind of growing ever since.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: The full auction runs across a Thursday and Friday in late November.

Before the trees go on the block, multiple auctioneers snake their way through rows of Christmas decoratives, wreaths, large and small, Santa-themed planters, chain saw reindeer, and more, all laid out in an open-air warehouse to the size of an airplane hangar.

But, on Friday, it's the trees' time to shine.

Most of the trees being auctioned off behind me are from here in Pennsylvania and from North Carolina.

But others have traveled from as far West as Oregon and as far north as Canada.

BEN COURTNEY: So they started arriving about nine days before the auction.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: The auction takes nearly seven hours, with Neil leading it the whole way.

NEIL COURTNEY, Buffalo Valley Produce Auction, Inc.

: Ladies and gentlemen, your eye is your guide, your checkbook talks, and when we say sold, you own it.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: Perched on top of a red truck, he slowly rolls through the rows and rows of balsams, Frasers, white pines, and more, buyers from up and down the East Coast in tow.

BEN COURTNEY: Our main customer are garden centers, like independent garden centers and farm markets.

Like Debbie Schmitt, who came from New York state.

DEBBIE SCHMITT, Tree Seller: We have three farm stands on Long Island, and we came to Pennsylvania to buy our Christmas -- some of our Christmas items.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: And Jack Harris from outside Pittsburgh.

JACK HARRIS, Tree Seller: My dad always wanted to sell Christmas trees, and we started the Christmas tree lot, and we have a thing.

Santa comes, the elves.

My mom has gifts and crafts for all the kids.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: But as idyllic as it may look, live Christmas tree sales are a billion-dollar industry and a risky business for buyers and sellers.

The last USDA census of agriculture found the U.S.

cut down 14.5 million Christmas trees in 2022.

More come in from Canada, but all are sold in the season that lasts barely a month.

BEN COURTNEY: The pendulum could swing either way.

It could be high price or could be very, very low.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: Christmas trees can take a decade to grow, so farmers have to make it through 10 years of changing seasons, predicting demand along the way.

BEN COURTNEY: And it's kind of hard to tell what the supply is going to be and what the demand is going to be that far in the future.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: Seasonal success rests on the buyers' bets made here, how many trees to purchase, and how much to pay.

This is Mark Spicer's second year in the business.

MARK SPICER, Tree Seller: It was really tough for me the first year because I had no idea how many to buy, and I bought a bunch of trees and had quite a few left over.

I mean, there's nothing like paying to pick them up and transport them back and then paying to throw them away.

ELIJAH LOPINTO, Tree Seller: There is definitely a gamble to it, especially at auction.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: The gamble doesn't end there.

Elijah Lopinto and Dante Williams (ph) sell trees in New York City where sellers stake out their valuable street corners weeks in advance.

ELIJAH LOPINTO: First come, first serve kind of deal.

The rules are, as long as you have permission of the closest business, you're allowed to sell anywhere on the street.

As soon as the trees are sold, they're loaded onto trailers and hit the road to greet peak demand after Thanksgiving, just in time.

BEN COURTNEY: It's a big push.

As soon as the trees are sold, they're started to be loaded.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: A push towards a home for the holidays, capping off years of risk, reward and Christmas care.

BEN COURTNEY: There's a lot of people that put a lot of hard work into it long hours, but it's what we do.

TIM MCPHILLIPS: For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Tim McPhillips in Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania.

JOHN YANG: You can find additional tips about how to pick the perfect Christmas tree and keep it alive on our YouTube page.

Be sure to tune into "Washington Week With The Atlantic" later tonight right here on PBS.

Jeffrey Goldberg and his panel discuss controversial moves from Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

And join me for "PBS News Weekend" tomorrow for a look at how some low-wage workers with full-time jobs are being pushed into homelessness.

That's Saturday on "PBS News Weekend."

And that is the "News Hour" for tonight.

I'm John Yang.

For all of us at the "PBS News Hour," thank you.

I will see you right back here tomorrow for "PBS News Weekend."

Have a great night.