>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE JUST PROVED THAT ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD IS NO MATCH FOR THE PEOPLE OF TEXAS.

>> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE REBUKED THE DEPRAVITY, CORRUPTION, AND INCOMPETENCE OF THE FAILED LAME DUCK PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP.

>> A BLUE TSUNAMI SWEEPS AMERICA.

DEMOCRATS SEIZED CONTROL OF CONGRESS, FLIPPING REPUBLICAN STRONGHOLDS IN A STUNNING REBUKE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF AMBASSADOR RAHM EMANUEL ON THIS POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE.

THEN -- HISTORY IN AMERICA, BUT WILL IT CHANGE ANYTHING FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD?

BARBADOS PRIME MINISTER MIA MOTTLEY ON THE MIDTERM RESULTS, CLIMATE JUSTICE AND SLAVERY REPARATIONS.

WE DISCUSS HER BUSY INTERNATIONAL AGENDA.

ALSO AHEAD - - >> PEOPLE AGREE WITH WHAT I'M DOING ON IRAN BUT THEY REALLY PROBABLY WEREN'T WILLING TO DO THE SHORT- TERM CONSEQUENCE OF PAYING MORE FOR GASOLINE.

>> AS AMERICA VOTES THE WORLD WATCHES.

COULD TRUMP'S DEFEAT AT HOME MAKE HIM MORE AGGRESSIVE ABROAD?

THE "FINANCIAL TIMES" ED LUCE AND ALI VAEZ OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP ON THE GLOBAL FALLOUT.

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>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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NORMA C. WARNER AND PAUL D. WARNER.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

A BLUE WAVE HAS WASHED AWAY REPUBLICAN CONTROL OF CONGRESS.

DEMOCRATS TOOK BACK CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, FLIPPING AT LEAST SEVEN SEATS IN A STUNNING REBUKE OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE PRESIDENT ASKED VOTERS TO ACT AS IF HE WERE ON THE BALLOT, AND THEY DID.

NOW HE APPEARS TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS BUT DENIES THEY WERE A VERDICT ON HIS PRESIDENCY.

BUT HIS VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE IS POINTING DIRECTLY TO THE IRAN WAR.

"THE REASON WE LOST IS THE WAR," HE WROTE ON X. THE LOSSES REACH DEEP INTO REPUBLICAN TERRITORY.

DEMOCRATS WON IN REPUBLICAN STRONGHOLDS FROM KANSAS TO SOUTH CAROLINA.

IN TEXAS JAMES TALARICO WON THE SENATE RACE, THE FIRST DEMOCRAT SINCE 1988.

AND GINA HINOJOSA WILL BECOME THE STATE'S FIRST LATINA GOVERNOR.

IN GEORGIA KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS BECAME THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN ELECTED GOVERNOR IN U. S. HISTORY.

>> GEORGIA, THIS WIN IS FOR ALL OF US!

>> AND THE FIRST IN THE SENATE MICHIGAN'S ABDUL EL-SAYED WILL BE ITS FIRST MUSLIM MEMBER.

>> DONALD, LOOK, I KNOW, YOU STRUGGLE WITH MY NAME.

SO AFTER J. D. SWEARS ME IN IN JANUARY YOU CAN JUST GO ON AND CALL ME SENATOR.

>> WHILE NEW HAMPSHIRE'S CHRIS PAPPAS IS THE FIRST OPENLY GAY MAN ELECTED TO THE CHAMBER.

PRESIDENT TRUMP STILL HAS TWO YEARS LEFT IN OFFICE, THOUGH, AMID A HOST OF GLOBAL CRISES.

AND NOW ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES ALIKE ARE WEIGHING HOW TO DEAL WITH HIM AFTER THIS DEFEAT.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE GLOBAL FALLOUT LATER IN THE PROGRAM.

BUT FIRST I'M JOINED BY RAHM EMANUEL, A FORMER CONGRESSMAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, A FORMER CHICAGO MAYOR AND FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN.

THAT IS A LOT OF CREDENTIALS THERE.

WITH WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, RAHM EMANUEL.

>> THANK YOU.

>> HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THIS?

>> WELL, IN SHORT, THIS WAS A TOTAL REPUDIATION OF DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS WHO'VE BEEN LAP DOGS FOR HIM.

100% REPUDIATION.

IT IS NOT A VINDICATION FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

WHAT DEMOCRATS DO IN 2027 SHOULD BE TO CONFIRM THAT GOVERNING ELECTORAL COALITION INTO A GOVERNING COALITION BY PASSING SIGNIFICANT REFORMS THAT BRING CHANGE THAT AFFECTS PEOPLE'S LIVES.

RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE IF IT HASN'T BEEN RAISED IN 20 YEARS.

RESTRICT AND REPEAL A LOT OF THE TARIFFS THAT ARE RAISING PRICES.

PASS A COMPREHENSIVE ALL-ENCOMPASSING THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS AND REFORM.

A LOT OF THOSE, MINIMUM WAGE AND ETHICS REFORM, HAVEN'T HAPPENED SINCE 2007 WHEN WE TOOK OVER, SENATOR OBAMA, CONGRESSMAN EMANUEL, WE PASSED LOBBY AND ETHICS REFORM.

IT'S BEEN 20 YEARS.

WE HAVEN'T RAISED THE MINIMUM WAGE IN 20 YEARS.

SO IF YOU DO THAT YOU'LL TAKE TO ALL THE MODERATE REPUBLICANS, ALL THE INDEPENDENTS ACROSS BIG PART OF AMERICA WHO VOTED FOR DEMOCRATS, FLIPPED SEATS IN AREAS WE'VE NEVER BEEN BEFORE AND IN A LONG TIME HAVEN'T BEEN LIKE KANSAS SINCE 1939 AND YOU'LL CONFIRM THAT THAT'S THE CHANGE I VOTED FOR.

AND THEN THEY WILL TAKE AN ELECTORAL COALITION AND MAKE IT A GOVERNING COALITION.

SO I VIEW THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY.

IT WAS A REPUDIATION OF THEM AND IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US.

NOW WE HAVE TO EXECUTE IN REAL TIME.

AND THE OTHER THING -- >> PRESIDENT TRUMP -- >> CAN I JUST ADD ONE THING?

>> YEAH.

>> WHEN I'M AROUND THE COUNTRY AND I GET THE REACTION FROM ALL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY I REMIND THEM, LOOK, THE KIDS ON THE "ABRAHAM LINCOLN USF" --U. S. AIRCRAFT CARRIER.

LIKE TWO KIDS OF MINE AS YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, R&R NAVY RESERVISTS.

THEY HAVE SERVED 322 DAYS AT SEA, THE LONGEST IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WITH RANCID FOOD AND NO BATHROOMS.

THE U. S. CONGRESS IN THAT TIME SERVED ONLY 100 DAYS IN SESSION.

ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES AND BREAK A SWEAT LIKE THOSE KIDS ON THE "ABRAHAM LINCOLN. "

GET TO WORK.

GET RESULTS.

PUT POINTS ON THE BOARD.

JUST LIKE THOSE KIDS DID.

322 DAYS WITH NO BATHROOMS, RANCID FOOD.

YOU WORKED FOR 100 DAYS.

YOU TOOK 200 DAYS OFF BASICALLY.

YOU NEED TO EARN YOUR PAY JUST LIKE THOSE KIDS.

>> WELL, AND CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE HAVE DELIVERED A REBUKE TO ALL OF THIS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> YES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU AGREE WITH WHAT J. D. VANCE SAID OR IS HE POSITIONING HIMSELF AS THE ANTI-WAR PERSON FOR 2028 WHEN HE WROTE ON TWITTER IT WAS THE WAR THAT LOST THIS ELECTION?

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT THE WAR WAS A PROBLEM.

BUT LOOK, THE CORRUPTION, AS SOMEBODY THAT'S TALKED ABOUT THIS LITERALLY FROM BEFORE THE PRESIDENT GOT SWORN IN, THAT HIS E ING CHARACTERISTICS WOULD BE HIS GREED, HIS SENSE OF GRANDEUR AND HIS GRIEVANCE.

HE CLOSED OUT THE CAMPAIGN AT A REFLECTING POOL THAT PEOPLE SAW AS A SYMBOL OF HIS MISSED PRIORITIES.

SO WAS IRAN PART OF IT?

NO DOUBT IRAN WAS.

BECAUSE I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

BECAUSE UNLIKE '06 WHEN I CHAIRED THE EFFORT TO TAKE BACK THE HOUSE AND MADE NANCY PELOSI SPEAKER, IN THAT TIME PEOPLE WERE DISAPPOINTED WITH GEORGE BUSH.

HERE THEY'RE ANGRY AT TRUMP.

AND WHY?

HE SAID I'M GOING TO PUT MONEY IN YOUR POCKET AND THEY SAW HIM FOR TWO YEARS PUT MONEY IN HIS OWN POCKET.

HE SAID I'M GOING TO END ENDLESS WARS AND HE STARTS AN ENDLESS WAR.

HE SAID I'M GOING TO REDUCE PRICES AND THEY SPIKED BECAUSE OF BOTH THE WAR AND HIS TARIFFS.

AND NOBODY LIKES TO BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED AND PLAYED FOR A FOOL.

SO WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD A CHANCE TO REBUT WHAT HE JUST DID THEY GAVE HIM AN UNAMBIGUOUS MESSAGE.

NO.

>> RAHM EMANUEL, I JUST WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT --OR TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE IRAN WAR BECAUSE I'VE JUST BEEN IN THE REGION THERE.

>> YEAH.

>> THE NEGOTIATORS, WHETHER THEY'RE FROM QATAR OR WHEREVER, ARE VERY, VERY UPSET AND WORRIED THAT THERE COULD BE ANOTHER MASSIVE OUTBREAK OF WAR.

THEY SAID THAT AS YOU KNOW THE ADMINISTRATION HAD BEEN TELEGRAPHING THAT THERE COULD BE.

TRUMP, THOUGH, TOLD THE F. T. THAT HE HAD NO PLANS IMMEDIATELY TO DO THAT.

AND THE IRANIANS HAVE PUT ON THEIR, YOU KNOW, ON X THEIR OFFICIAL RESPONSE IS BASICALLY WE THE IRANIANS HAVE DEALT THE UNITED STATES A STRATEGIC DEFEAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND A POLITICAL DEFEAT WHICH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO PAY THE BILL FOR THIS WAR.

WE WILL NOT SURRENDER.

I'M JUST SAYING WHAT THEY SAY.

THAT THEY WANT TO NEGOTIATE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS POSSIBLE TO END THIS WAR?

>> WELL, POSSIBLE TO END THIS WAR, LOOK, YOU HAVE A BIG GULF HERE.

I PERSONALLY --THIS IS A PERSONAL VIEW.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T WANT TO DO WAR.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO BACK INTO MILITARY CONFLICT.

FROM WHAT I ALSO KNOW IS THERE'S OBVIOUSLY ONGOING BOTH INDIRECT CONVERSATIONS AND THIRD-PARTY CONVERSATIONS AND THE TRUTH IS THE IRANIANS DON'T WANT TO DO A WAR.

NOW, THE GULF, IT'S THE SAIL SAME GULF.

HOW DO YOU HANDLE THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

HOW DO YOU HANDLE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ SO THEY DON'T TAKE CONTROL OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND TAKE AN INTERNATIONAL WATERWAY AS IF IT'S THEIR BACKWATER IN THEIR CONTROL?

AND THOSE KIND OF STRATEGIC OPTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES.

NOW, IN MY VIEW I WOULD DO A SERIES OF THINGS BOTH ON THE SHORT TERM, MEDIUM AND LONG TERM THAT WOULD ALTER THAT.

I DON'T THINK EITHER PARTY ACTUALLY WANTS CONFLICT.

BUT NEITHER PARTY KNOWS HOW TO MINIMIZE AND THEN NARROW THE BRIDGE, OR BRIDGE THE DIFFERENCES HERE.

YOU KNOW, SOME WITH THE PRESIDENT --AND I WOULD GO AWAY FROM THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IF I CAN, CHRISTIANE, SLIGHTLY FROM A HISTORICAL STANDPOINT.

IN ABOUT A MONTH FROM NOW THE PRESIDENT'S GOING TO GO TO THE ASIA PACIFIC ECONOMIC COUNCIL.

THERE'S GOING TO BE HEADS OF STATE FROM 20-PLUS COUNTRIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

HE HAS BEEN DESIROUS, AS YOU KNOW, SINCE DAY ONE FOR HIS LITTLE POTSDAM CONFERENCE WITH STALIN, CHURCHILL AND AT THAT TIME TRUMAN.

AND HE'S SO ENVIOUS AND SO MUCH WANTS THE PICTURE OF HIM WITH HIS FELLOW DICTATORS.

AND HE'S GOING TO BE THE CHURCHILL AT THE TABLE BECAUSE AT POTSDAM CHURCHILL GOT THE ELECTION RESULTS AND ATLEE CAME IN AND HAD TO SIT IN FOR GREAT BRITAIN.

HE COMES INTO THAT CONFERENCE THAT HE WANTS A WEAKENED MAN.

AND PUTIN AND XI WILL SEE A WOUNDED, WEAKENED, DEBILITATED INDIVIDUAL.

AND NOW THE PRESIDENT WILL FINALLY GET THE MEETING HE'S ALWAYS WANTED, THE PICTURE OF THE THREE -- TWO OF THEM CLEARLY DICTATORS.

WE JUST SHOWED THAT WE'RE STILL A DEMOCRACY.

AND THAT WE'RE AN OPERATING DEMOCRACY.

AND HE WILL BE THE CHURCHILL AT THE TABLE, NOT THE ROOSEVELT.

>> THAT IS AN INTERESTING MESSAGE.

AND PARTICULARLY BECAUSE HE LIKES ALL THIS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE TALK.

BUT IF HE GOES IN WEAKENED THAT'S AN ISSUE.

BUT HERE'S THE THING.

DOES IT THEN BEHOOVE HIM TO DO WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD DO, WHICH IS WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATS?

LET ME PLAY THIS BIT OF AN INTERVIEW FROM THIS MORNING AFTER THE RESULTS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> WELL, WE'RE GOING TO WORK WITH THE DEMOCRATS TO MAKE SURE THINGS GO WELL FOR OUR COUNTRY.

VERY IMPORTANT.

THEY'VE ALREADY CALLED AND THEY WANT TO WORK WITH ME.

I HAVE A RIGHT TO VETO EVERYTHING.

BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE JUST SITTING THERE FOR TWO YEARS VETOING EVERYTHING.

THEY WANT TO SEE THINGS HAPPEN TOO.

I'VE ALREADY SPOKEN TO CERTAIN LEADERS OF THE DEMOCRAT PARTY.

>> SO RAHM, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, WORK WITH, ALL THE REST, THE DEMOCRATS YOU SAID HAVE A WHOLE LIST OF AGENDA THAT THEY NEED TO DO.

BUT HE CAN VETO EVERYTHING, RIGHT?

>> SURE.

HE CAN.

LOOK, I START FROM A VIEW AS A FORMER MAYOR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, I'M GOING TO SEE COMMON GROUND.

BUT I KNOW HOW TO HOLD MY GROUND.

AND SO THE GENERAL ATTITUDE SHOULD BE LOOK, WE'RE GOING TO RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE.

AND MARK MY WORDS, YOU'RE GOING TO GET A LOT OF REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE THAT WILL VOTE WITH DEMOCRATS.

THEN THE PRESIDENT HAS TO MAKE A DECISION.

SIGN OR OVERRIDE.

LOBBYING SKPEGTICS REFORM, BIG BIPARTISAN MAJORITIES ARE GOING TO BE FOR THAT.

SIGN OR BE OVERRIDDEN.

YOU DO TARIFF RELIEF, WHICH IS WHAT IS DRIVING FARMERS CRAZY AND CONSUMERS CRAZY, AND YOU HAVE A RURAL URBAN COALITION ABOUT HOW TARIFFS HAVE HURT.

SIGN OR BE OVERRIDDEN.

AND SO YES, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO VETO.

BUT HE'S GOING TO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS AT THE LEGISLATION AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO WHEN YOU DO LEGISLATIVE.

WHAT UNITES OUR TEAM AND DIVIDES THE OTHER SIDE.

AND THAT IS -- IF YOU PUT POINTS ON THE BOARD, IF YOU ACTUALLY BRING THE CHANGE THAT PEOPLE, MODERATE REPUBLICANS, INDEPENDENTS HAVE VOTED FOR DEMOCRATS, IF YOU BRING THAT TYPE OF CHANGE YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE AN ELECTORAL COALITION AND MAKE IT A GOVERNING COALITION.

THAT'S WHAT 2027 OFFERS AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR DEMOCRATS.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TO LOOK AT THIS AND DECIDE WHETHER HE WANTS TO BE A DIMINISHED PRESIDENT OR PLAY A ROLE.

NOW LOOK, LET'S GO BACK TO HISTORY.

I JUST DID GOING BACK TO '45.

RONALD REAGAN IN THE LAST TWO YEARS OF HIS PRESIDENCY WHEN THE DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED AFTER THE MIDTERM ELECTION OF '86, HE DID WELFARE REFORM.

HE DID --IMMIGRATION ALSO HAPPENED THEN.

YOU CAN GET THINGS DONE.

BILL CLINTON ALSO DID THAT AFTER 1998 ON CERTAIN THINGS.

SO THE OPPORTUNITY EXISTS.

BUT IF THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO ASK LIKE CONGRESS --LIKE THE WAY HE TREATED CONGRESS UNDER THE REPUBLICANS, HE'S IN FOR AN AWAKENING.

THE DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS WILL NOT BE THE LAPDOG REPUBLICAN CONGRESS THAT'S COMING OUT OF POWER NOW.

HE DOES NOT GET A RUBBER STAMP.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT --DO YOU THINK THEN THAT MAGA IS OVER, THAT THIS IS THE END OF THE TRUMP ERA, OR IS THERE A LOT OF TRUMPISM THAT CAN STILL CONTINUE IN THESE NEXT TWO YEARS?

>> BOTH.

IF I STEP BACK ON -- BASICALLY OFF THE FIELD AND ONTO THE SIDELINE, BOTH PARTIES ARE GOING THROUGH A HISTORIC TRANSFORMATION.

THIS WAS --MAGA WAS VERY MUCH TIED TO ONE PERSON.

THERE IS A BIG INTERNAL DEBATE THAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO HAVE THAT SAME DEBATE.

AND BOTH ARE GOING TO PLAY OUT IN THE PRESIDENTIAL PROCESS.

NOW, TO ME IF YOU UNPACK WHAT I JUST SAID, YOU CAN LOOK AT IT FROM A COUPLE WAYS FOR DEMOCRATS.

I'LL COMMENT ON THAT SENSE AND I'LL GO RIGHT TO THE MAGA PART.

LOOK, EVERYWHERE IN --YOU TAKE MINNESOTA, WHICH IS A BLUE STATE.

MICHIGAN, WHICH IS A PURPLE STATE.

OHIO, WHICH IS A RED STATE.

WE NOMINATED AND ELECTED THREE GOVERNORS, ALL COMING OUT OF THE MODERATE WING, WHO LED THEIR PARTIES.

THE SENATORS IN THOSE STATES WERE OF THE MORE PROGRESSIVE WING OF THE PARTY AND THEY RAN 2 TO 2 1/2 TO 3% BELOW WHERE THE GOVERNORS WERE.

SO IT'S VERY CLEAR FROM A BLUE STATE TO A RED STATE TO A PURPLE STATE THAT MODERATE CANDIDATES DO BETTER ELECTORALLY.

IN THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS GOING BACK 2016, 2020, AND 2024, SEVEN STATES, 500,000 VOTERS ACROSS THOSE SEVEN STATES, DECIDED WHO WAS PRESIDENT.

AND IN THOSE STATES BREAKING NEWS, SWING VOTERS IN SWING STATES SWING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

YOU CAN IGNORE IT OR TAKE ADVICE FROM IT.

NOW THE REPUBLICANS --THE REPUBLICANS WILL HAVE TO DECIDE DO THEY STAY THE COURSE THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS CHARTED FOR THEM OR DO THEY TAKE THAT A FORMER REPUBLICAN WON THE SENATE SEAT IN KANSAS WHICH HASN'T HAPPENED SINCE 1939.

THAT NEIL BUSH THE BROTHER AND SON OF TWO PRESIDENTS ENDORSED A DEMOCRAT FOR THE U. S. SENATE.

DO THEY TAKE NOTE THAT IN ARIZONA A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR PICKED A REPUBLICAN MAYOR AS HER RUNNING MATE AND THEY WON NOT ONLY THAT OFFICE BY 12 POINTS, THEY CAN NOW FLIP THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

THERE'S A LOT TO BE HAD HERE.

>> YEAH, IT'S REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.

AND YOU'RE SO GRANULAR AND YOU KNOW THE INTRICACIES SO VERY WELL.

BUT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY MOVED.

THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS, THE MORE PROGRESSIVES HAVE MOVED THE AGENDA LET'S SAY ON ISRAEL.

THEY GOT ELECTED BASICALLY ON TRYING TO HOLD ISRAEL ACCOUNTABLE.

YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN TO ISRAEL AND MADE QUITE A DRAMATIC SPLASH GIVEN YOUR HISTORY AND YOUR --YOU KNOW, AND YOUR ALLEGIANCES AND YOUR FIRM SUPPORT OF OBVIOUSLY THE STATE OF ISRAEL, BUT YOU SAID THAT THE RELATIONSHIP HAS TO CHANGE, IT CAN'T JUST BE UNCONDITIONAL.

>> YEAH.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S BE CLEAR, BACK IN JUNE I SAID THE IDEA OF U. S. TAXPAYERS GOING TO FUND YOUR WEAPON PURCHASES OVER, YOU'RE GOING TO BE LIKE ANY OTHER ALLY, NOT A DEPENDENT.

NOW THE PRESIDENT ENDORSES THAT.

YOU COULD HAVE SEEN THAT.

SECOND, AS I LAID OUT A VERY SPECIFIC PEACE PLAN, ECONOMIC PLAN TO BREAK ISRAEL OUT OF THE PARIAH STATUS THAT IT'S IN, THAT THE PRIME MINISTER GOT THEM TO.

AND CHRISTIANE, YOU KNOW ME GOING WAY BACK.

IN '09 WHEN I WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S CHIEF OF STAFF I CONFRONTED THE PRIME MINISTER DIRECTLY AND BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LIKE IT AND LIKED WHAT I SAID ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE DOING ON THE WEST BANK AND WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THE HOUSING, HE PUBLICLY CALLED ME A SELF-LOATHING JEW.

LOCK, MY RECORD GOES WAY BACK.

EVERYBODY ELSE IN ALL DUE RESPECT THAT YOU CITED IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THEY'RE JOHNNY COME LATELIES, 18 YEARS LATER.

I WAS THERE AND CONFRONTED THE PRIME MINISTER DIRECTLY.

DOESN'T TAKE A LOT OF COURAGE WRITING AN OPINION PIECE IN AN AMERICAN PAPER.

DID IT DIRECTLY TO HIM.

PUBLICLY ACCUSED ME IN 2009, 18 YEARS AGO, OF BEING A SELF-LOATHING JEW.

SO TO ME I'VE BEEN CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

BUT I DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT SOMEHOW THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS ARE --WHEN YOU HAVE A SENATOR FROM KANSAS THAT USED TO BE A REPUBLICAN, WHEN YOU HAVE IN ARIZONA THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WAS A FORMER REPUBLICAN MAYOR, THE ACTUAL BIGGEST STORY ABOUT THE GOVERNING COALITION AND ELECTORAL COALITION FOR THE DEMOCRATS IS THAT NON-MAGA JOHN McCAIN MITT ROMNEY REPUBLICANS THAT NO LONGER THINK OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AS THEIR HOME.

THEY'RE UP FOR GRABS.

THAT'S A HUGE OPPORTUNITY FOR US.

AND THAT HAS TO BE SEIZED IF WE WANT TO BE A GOVERNING MAJORITY.

>> IT'S REALLY A FASCINATING MOMENT.

RAHM EMANUEL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH -- >> CHRISTIANE, BEFORE WE GO, ONE THING.

ONE THING.

YOU AND I HAVE DONE THIS SHOW A LOT OF TIMES.

THIS IS GOING TO BE THE LAST TIME I DO THIS BEFORE YOU RETIRE.

I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR PUBLIC SERVICE ARE AND WHAT YOU DID HOLDING ALL OF US AND ALL OF US IN PUBLIC LIFE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT WE SAID AND WHAT WE'VE DONE.

YOU'VE BEEN A GREAT CONTRIBUTION TO OUR DISCUSSIONS, OUR DEBATE, AND BASICALLY ALSO MAKING US BETTER AT WHAT WE DO.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, RAHM.

I'M NOT RETIRING.

I'M REINVENTING.

AND I'M STILL GOING TO BE AROUND CNN -- >> WHATEVER.

>> SO KEEP COMING ON.

>> SO THEN I'LL SKIP ALL THE NICE THINGS I JUST SAID.

ERASE THAT.

>> NO, KEEP THE NICE THINGS.

KEEP THE NICE THINGS.

VERY GOOD.

I JUST WANT YOU BACK.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WORLD LEADERS ARE WATCHING THESE MIDTERM ELECTION RESULTS VERY CLOSELY FOR SIGNS OF WHERE AMERICA IS HEADED AND WHAT THEY CAN EXPECT FROM WASHINGTON OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

THAT'S AN URGENT QUESTION FOR THE SMALL ISLAND NATIONS THAT GATHERED WITH KING CHARLES AND OTHER COMMONWEALTH LEADERS IN ANTIGUA IN THE CARIBBEAN THIS WEEK.

THEY NEED INVESTMENT NOW TO SURVIVE THE CLIMATE CRISIS THAT THEY DID LITTLE TO CAUSE.

THE SUMMIT ALSO PUT THE LEGACY OF SLAVERY IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

KING CHARLES EXPRESSED, QUOTE, PROFOUND PERSONAL SORROW AS CALLS FOR A FORMAL APOLOGY CONTINUE.

BARBADOS PRIME MINISTER MIA MOTTLEY HAS LED THE PUSH FOR CLIMATE FINANCE AND FOR REPARATIONS.

SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM ANTIGUA.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, PRIME MINISTER MOTTLEY.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

>> YEAH.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

UNFORTUNATELY WE'VE GOT A BIT OF A DELAY.

SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU THE FIRST QUESTION.

WHICH IS WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THE ELECTION RESULT?

>> WELL, WE WATCHED IT KEENLY.

AS WE SAY ALL THE TIME, IF AMERICA SNEEZES WE CATCH A COLD IN THE CARIBBEAN.

AND IN RECENT TIMES WE'VE CERTAINLY FELT THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE WAR IN UKRAINE, BECAUSE LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA FOR US ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES IS THE COST OF LIVING AND OF COURSE THE GROWING INEQUALITY THAT IS SPAWNED BY THAT AND OTHER DEEPENING CONSOLIDATION OF WEALTH IN THE DEVELOPED WORLD.

WE HEARD THE AMERICAN POPULATION SPEAK VERY CLEARLY.

WE KNOW THAT THEY TOO ARE HURTING.

AND WHEN YOU REALLY THINK OF IT IT'S NOT ONLY THOSE WHO ARE VOTING BUT THOSE WHO ARE PROTESTING WITH THEIR FEET ACROSS THE WORLD TOO, WHO ARE SAYING LOOK, THE STATUS QUO IS NOT WORKING FOR US, PERCEIVED COMPLIANCE WITH DEMOCRACY IS NOT WORKING FOR US.

WE WANT TO SEE US AT THE CENTER OF IT.

AND WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE SHOULD BE --LIBERAL OR MARKET-DRIVEN APPROACH THAT SEES ARITHMETIC BUT DOESN'T SEE PEOPLE.

>> PRIME MINISTER, YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU'VE WATCHED IT.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS HAD THIS IDEA OF SPHERES OF INFLUENCE, THE HEMISPHERE WHICH YOU ARE FIRMLY IN, WAS DEFINITELY BEING CLAIMED BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

THEIR ACTIONS IN VENEZUELA AND ELSEWHERE.

THEIR TALKS ABOUT SEIZING, YOU KNOW, CANADA AS THE 51st STATE OR THE PANAMA CANAL AT ONE POINT.

IT WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I WONDER WHETHER --AND MANY COUNTRIES DID ACTUALLY FEEL THAT THEY HAD TO I SUPPOSE BOW A LITTLE BIT TO AVOID ANY, YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC PUNITIVE REACTION FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT VIEW OF THE UNITED STATES FROM, WHETHER IT'S YOUR HEMISPHERE OR THE REST OF THE WORLD, AMERICAN ALLIES, WILL CHANGE A LITTLE BIT IN THE WAKE OF THESE RESULTS?

>> WELL, I HOPE THAT EVERYONE WILL REALIZE THAT THESE RESULTS ARE SENDING A STRONG MESSAGE FROM ORDINARY PEOPLE AND TO THAT EXTENT WE HAVE TO WORK HARDER AND WORK BETTER TOGETHER IN ORDER TO FIND THAT COMMON SPACE WHERE WE CAN HAVE PEOPLE ACTUALLY BE AT THE CENTER OF WHAT WE DO.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE WAR IN UKRAINE YOU HAVE THE INCREASE IN PRICES IN FUEL BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF FEED AND FERTILIZERS.

THIS HAS BEEN COMPOUNDED AGAIN BY THE CHOKING OFF OF THE STRAITS OF HORMUZ AND BABB EL MAN DAB.

AND IF YOU TAKE THE PANAMA CANAL THAT IS REDUCING THE NUMBER OF VESSELS PASSING THROUGH BECAUSE OF THE CLIMATE WE CAN FACE A PERFECT TRIFECTA IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD.

WE DO RECOGNIZE THAT HOPEFULLY OTHERS WILL SEE THAT THERE IS LEGITIMACY IN THE CLAIMS NOT ONLY OF A SMALL ISLAND BUT -- >> NOW, THIS WEEK YOU ARE AT THE COMMONWEALTH MEETING AND KING CHARLES III OF GREAT BRITAIN HAS STARTED THE PROCESS OF AAPOLOGIZING FOR BRITAIN'S, YOU KNOW, INVOLVEMENT OBVIOUSLY IN THE SLAVERY MOVEMENT.

HE BASICALLY SAID THE FOLLOWING.

>> THAT SHAMEFUL CHAPTER OF HISTORY IS ONE THAT FILLS MY HEART WITH HORROR AND MY SOUL WITH THE MOST PROFOUND PERSONAL SORROW.

AND YET HISTORY ALSO TEACHES US THAT EVIL NEED NOT HAVE THE LAST WORD.

THE MORE I HAVE FURTHERED MY OWN UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUES THROUGH LISTENING, LEARNING AND LOOKING, THE MORE COMMITTED I HAVE BECOME TO FINDING WAYS FOR US TO WORK IN MODERN PARTNERSHIP TO ADDRESS THE WRONGS OF THE PAST WITH ACTION FOR THE FUTURE.

>> NOW, YOU, PRIME MINISTER, HAVE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT YOU BELIEVE REPARATIONS ARE THE RIGHT WAY.

YOU CALLED FOR THE MORAL, ETHICAL AND LEGAL CASE FOR REPARATIONS FOR DAMAGES CAUSED BY SLAVERY.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT PRIME MINISTER ANDY BURNHAM IS ALSO TALKING ABOUT ACTUALLY A PROPER FORMAL APOLOGY FOR SLAVERY BUT NOT REPARATIONS, MORE INVESTMENT AND OTHER KINDS OF MONEYS GIVEN TO COUNTRIES LIKE YOURS.

IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

>> WELL, CLEARLY IT ISN'T.

BUT WHAT IS GOOD IS THAT PRIME MINISTER BURNHAM HAS OFD A FRAMEWORK FOR STRUCTURED DIALOGUE.

AND THIS IS THE VERY FIRST TIME THAT THIS HAPPENED.

NOW, WE WOULDN'T NEED DIALOGUE IF WE WERE IN AGREEMENT ON EVERYTHING.

WE CLEARLY ARE NOT IN AGREEMENT ON EVERYTHING.

AND THE CARIBBEAN REGION HAS HAD A TEN-POINT PLAN FOR REPARATIONS FOR SOME TIME NOW, JUST ABOUT 12 RECENTLY REVISED IT.

AND WE BELIEVE THAT WITH OUR COLLEAGUES FROM THE AFRICAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM HAVE STARTED A PROCESS OF FINDING A PLACE WHERE WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE OF REPAIR.

BECAUSE IT'S REAL.

AND MANY PEOPLE THINK ABOUT MONEY ONLY.

BUT LET ME ALSO REMIND YOU THAT WE ALSO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE MINDSET.

AND I SPOKE ABOUT THAT RECENTLY IN MY U. N. SPEECH LARGELY BECAUSE THERE IS STILL THIS BELIEF OF FIRST AND SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS.

WE CAN REPEAL LEGISLATION OVERNIGHT AS WE DID WITH THE 1661 SLAVE CODE AND MOST RECENTLY FRANCE DID WITH THE CODE NOIR.

BUT WHAT WE CANNOT DO IS TO CHANGE THE MENTALITY OVERNIGHT.

WHAT WE'RE RECOGNIZING IS THE REPAIR EFFORT REQUIRES FIRST OF ALL EDUCATION AND SENSITIZATION.

THEN IT REQUIRES US SHARING PERSPECTIVES.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF COLONIALISM AND SLAVERY LEFT THE CARIBBEAN AND AFRICA AND MANY OF THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES WITH A CHRONIC DEVELOPMENT DEFICIT THAT HAS NOT BEEN MET.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE HAD THE EXTRACTION OF WEALTH FOR CENTURIES COMPOUNDED ALSO THEN WITH THE COMPENSATION THAT WAS PAID TO BRITISH SLAVE OWNERS IN 1834 OF 20 MILLION POUNDS, A FIGURE THAT IS PROBABLY IN EXCESS OF 2 BILLION POUNDS TODAY, AND WHICH TOOK OVER 150 YEARS FOR THE BRITISH TO REPAY.

IN FACT, THEY ONLY REPAID IT THIS CENTURY.

WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS MUCH TO DISCUSS.

BUT AS A YOUNG LAWYER I LEARNED YOU ARGUE A CASE ONCE IN COURT AND SIMILARLY FOR THE NEGOTIATIONS IF THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE TO BE SUCCESSFUL THEN WE EACH HAVE TO TREAT TO IT WITH RESPECT AND ENSURE THAT WE KEEP TO THE NEGOTIATING RULE THOSE THINGS THAT ARE CRITICAL WHILE AT THE SAME TIME RECOGNIZING THAT THOSE WHO COMMENT OUTSIDE THE NEGOTIATING ROOM ARE PROVIDING EDITORIAL COMMENT BUT NOT NECESSARILY PART OF THE STRUCTURED NEGOTIATIONS.

SO WE WANT TO TREAT THIS WITH THE SERIOUSNESS WITH WHICH IT HAS BEEN AFFORDED TO US.

WE STILL DO FEEL THAT THE EASIEST WAY TO SAY I'M SORRY IS TO SAY "I'M SORRY. "

AND WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE QUICKER THAT CAN HAPPEN THEN THE BLEEDING CAN STOP AND THE PROCESS OF MOVING ON, WHICH IS GOING TO TAKE TIME, IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH SOMETHING THAT LASTED FOR OVER TWO CENTURIES.

>> YES INDEED.

AND YOU MENTIONED AS A YOUNG LAWYER.

AND YOU'RE VERY COMMITTED TO THE INTERNATIONAL RULE OF LAW.

AND IN YOUR U. N. SPEECH YOU ALSO SAID THE CARIBBEAN MUST REMAIN A ZONE OF PEACE RATHER THAN A THEATER FOR CONFRONTATION OR THE UNILATERAL AND UNJUSTIFIED USE OF FORCE.

SO YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT VENEZUELA AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR.

YOU MIGHT BE REFERRING TO WHAT MAY COME DOWN THE PIKE VIS-A-VIS THE UNITED STATES AND CUBA.

DO YOU THINK --WELL, WHAT ARE YOUR BIGGEST FEARS ABOUT THAT AND DO YOU THINK THESE ELECTION RESULTS MAY HAVE TAKEN SOME OF THESE UNILATERAL, YOU KNOW, MOVES BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFF THE TABLE OR DO YOU THINK IT'S STILL A LIVE OPTION?

>> WELL, IN THE UNITED STATES SYSTEM THEY HAVE THEIR CHECKS AND BALANCES AND THE PRESIDENT DOES DEAL WITH FOREIGN POLICY BUT CONGRESS DEALS WITH THE ACTS OF AUTHORIZING CONFLICT.

HAVING SAID THAT, WE ARE CONSCIOUS THAT REALLY AND TRULY THE FIRST THING WE OUGHT TO DO IS TO RECOGNIZE AS I SAID THERE ARE NO FIRST-CLASS AND SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS AS HUMAN BEINGS.

THERE IS A HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN CUBA.

AND FIRST AND FOREMOST BEFORE WE GET TO THE ISSUE OF REFOCUSING AND RESTRUCTURING AND SEEING HOW WE CAN IMPROVE THE POLITICAL SYSTEMS, BECAUSE ALL OF THE SYSTEMS NEED ADDRESSING, OURS AND THEIRS, WE NEED FIRST TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE ACCESS TO BASIC FOOD AND TO ENERGY.

AND UNLESS WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT HUMANITARIAN CRISIS WE PUT AT RISK PEOPLE'S LIVES FROM BABIES TO ELDERLY PEOPLE, AND I DO HOPE THAT IN THE SAME WAY THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE HAS SAID PEOPLE MATTER BY THE MANNER IN WHICH THEY VOTED THAT WE CAN ALSO EXTRAPOLATE FROM THAT IT'S NOT ONLY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT MATTERS BUT PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD.

AS GLOBAL LEADERS WE NEED TO DO FAR MORE TO RESOLVE CONFLICT, TO MINIMIZE THE IMPACT ON ORDINARY PEOPLE, AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE FOCUS ON WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

PEOPLE WANT SHELTER.

PEOPLE WANT FOOD.

PEOPLE WANT ACCESS TO OPPORTUNITY.

AS WE SAY WE ALSO WANT TO STOP PEOPLE FROM BEING POOR.

WE WANT TO CREATE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES AND FIGHT THOSE INJUSTICES.

IF WE'RE NOT WALKING THE WALK BUT ONLY TALKING THE TALK, PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE US.

AND THEREFORE, I'M HOPING THIS AREA OF THE WORLD, WE CAN CONTINUE TO SHOW THE WAY AS WE'VE DONE FOR DECADES, BUT EQUALLY WE ARE AT RISK OF GOING THE WAY OF OTHERS IF WE GO DOWN A PATHWAY THAT PUTS AT RISK PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO FEED THEMSELVES OR INDEED TO PROVIDE A LIVING FOR THEMSELVES.

>> NOW, ON THE MASSIVE ISSUE OF CLIMATE THAT YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT SO, SO MANY TIMES WE KNOW THAT YOUR COUNTRIES AND MOST OF THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE PAYING FOR IT HAVE NOT ACTUALLY PAID THE PRICE FOR CLIMATE HAVE NOT ACTUALLY CAUSED IT BY AND LARGE.

BUT YOU KNOW THE UNITED STATES UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS ROLLED BACK SO MANY CLIMATE INITIATIVES AND REGULATIONS AT HOME AND EVEN PAID COMPANIES NOT TO PUT IN SUSTAINABLE ENERGY IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE WHICH MIGHT SEE A DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, A DIFFERENT TRACK IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS AFTER THESE ELECTIONS?

>> FOR THE SAKE OF HUMAN BEINGS I HOPE SO.

WE HAVE SEEN THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE CLIMATE NOT JUST IN THE CARIBBEAN, NOT JUST IN NEPAL, NOT JUST IN EUROPE THIS YEAR WHERE SO MANY PEOPLE DIED FROM THE HEAT WAVE.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN CALIFORNIA, WHERE THERE WERE FIRES AT THE BEGINNING OF LAST YEAR THAT DEVASTATED THE LIVES OF SO MANY AND TOOK LIVES AS WELL.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN FLORIDA.

WE SEE IT CONTINUOUSLY.

LOOK, WE SEE IT IN THE GROUNDWATER CRISIS.

IN THE SARGASSO SEA THAT IS COMPROMISING THE LIVES OF SO MANY IN THE CARIBBEAN THE GULF OF MEXICO AND ELSEWHERE.

I REALLY DO HOPE WE HAVE A BALANCED APPROACH.

WE HAVE SAID, AND I HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL RECONSIDER.

BECAUSE I THINK THAT HELPS HIS COMPANIES.

WE HAVE SAID THAT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES AND THE SPREAD OF METHANE.

THE EMISSIONS FROM METHANE QUITE FRANKLY COME FROM THREE SOURCES.

WHEN WE FLAIR GAS OR GAS PIPES LEAK, HOW WE DO OUR AGRICULTURAL PRACTICES IN TERMS OF LIVESTOCK FARMING AS WELL AS RICE PADDY FARMING, AND THEN OF COURSE FROM GARBAGE DUMPS.

WHEN I ASKED MEMBERS OF THE GULF STATES WHETHER THEY FLAIR GAS THEY SAID TO ME WE DON'T BURN MONEY BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE THAT FLARING GAS DOESN'T ONLY HURT THE ATMOSPHERE IT ALSO HURTS THE COMPANIES' BALANCE SHEET.

AND I WOULD HOPE THAT THAT COMMON LOVE LANGUAGE OF ENHANCING THE BALANCE SHEETS OF OIL AND GAS COMPANIES WHILE AT THE SAME TIME HELPING THOSE WHO WANT TO SAVE THE PLANET REMOVE FROM THE ATMOSPHERE A GAS THAT IS 80 TIMES MORE DANGEROUS THAN CARBON DIOXIDE BUT HAS THE ADVANTAGE OF BEING ABLE TO BE REMOVED WITHIN 12 TO 15 YEARS AND THEREFORE ALLOWING FOR A REVERSAL IN TEMPERATURE INCREASES, I HOPE THAT WE CAN FIND COMMON PURPOSE ON THAT BECAUSE THERE IS A COMMON LOVE LANGUAGE EVEN IF WE END UP COMING TO IT FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, ONE PROFIT, ONE PLANET.

>> IT'S REALLY GREAT TO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE PARTICULARLY ON THIS DAY AND ALL THOSE ISSUES.

PRIME MINISTER MIA MOTTLEY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

NOW, AS RESULTS FROM THESE HISTORIC MIDTERMS CONTINUE TO COME IN, ONE THING IS ALREADY CERTAIN.

THAT THIS ELECTION WILL HAVE RAMIFICATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

FROM THE IRAN WAR TO RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL, U. S. SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE, AND FRAYED TIES WITH EUROPE.

UNDERSCORING EARLY REACTIONS, THOUGH, IS A CONCERN AMONGST AMERICA'S FRIENDS AND FOES THAT TRUMP'S ELECTORAL LOSSES COULD SPUR HIM TOWARDS EVEN MORE AGGRESSIVE ACTIONS ON THE GLOBAL STAGE.

WITH ME TO DISCUSS IS ED LUCE, THE U. S. NATIONAL EDITOR FOR THE "FINANCIAL TIMES," AND ALI VAEZ, DEPUTY PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.

WELCOME BOTH TO THE PROGRAM.

ED LUCE, SITTING IN THE UNITED STATES, I ASSUME THAT'S WHERE YOU WERE, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S WHERE YOU ARE.

WRITING AND WATCHING.

WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE MAGNITUDE OF THIS, AND DO YOU THINK THAT TRUMP IS GOING TO BE AN ANGRY DUCK RATHER THAN A LAME DUCK?

>> I WASN'T SHOCKED BY THE SCALE OF THIS BUT IT WAS STILL LARGER THAN I WAS EXPECTING.

I WAS EXPECTING A WAVE AND IT IS AS THEY CALL IT A TSUNAMI.

I GOT THROUGH TO TRUMP A COUPLE OF HOURS BEFORE THE POLLS CLOSED ON HIS CELL PHONE.

AND AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, I'D SPOKEN TO HIM BEFORE, AS AMANY JOURNALISTS HAD, BUT AT THAT TIME HE SOUNDED VERY LOW ENERGY.

ALMOST SORT OF FATALISTIC ABOUT HIS PROSPECTS.

SO ANYTHING BUT AN ANGRY DUCK.

BUT AS YOU KNOW FULL WELL, CHRISTIANE, WHAT HE SAYS NOW COULD BE CONTRADICTED A FEW HOURS LATER.

IT REALLY ISN'T MUCH OF A GUIDE TO FUTURE ACTION.

>> YEAH.

THERE WERE OTHER LINES.

AGAIN, I'M JUST SO AMAZED THAT YOU CAN PICK UP PHONE AND TALK TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IN ANY EVENT, HE CLAIMED TO YOU THAT ENERGY PRICES WOULD COME DOWN AFTER THE MIDTERMS.

HE SAID IT'S A BRILLIANT SITUATION.

HE SAID WE SEEM TO BE GETTING EVERYTHING WE WANT, WE'RE READY, WE'RE LOCKED AND LOADED IF WE NEED TO GO BUT MAYBE THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR IT.

ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

DID YOU GET THE IMPRESSION HE'S TRYING TO TALK HIS WAY OUT OF IT AND DO YOU REALLY THINK, YOU FOR THE "FINANCIAL TIMES," THAT THESE OIL PRICES ARE GOING TO COME DOWN NOW THE MIDTERMS ARE OVER?

>> WELL, IT'S VERY INTERESTING.

I CERTAINLY GOT THE IMPRESSION DURING THAT CALL THAT THERE WAS NOTHING LOCKED AND LOADED, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF THE SPECULATION WE'VE HAD IN RECENT DAYS ABOUT TRUMP STRIKING IRAN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE MIDTERMS.

THAT REALLY DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ON HIS MIND.

BUT THE OIL PRICE SITUATION, YOU KNOW, WILL DEPEND ON WHAT HE DOES IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

AND IT'S VERY INTERESTING TO SEE THAT HIS VICE PRESIDENT J. D. VANCE IS SQUARELY BLAMING THE DEFEAT ON THE IRAN WAR AND SAYING WE HAVE TO MOVE AWAY FROM IT.

THAT'S HIS OPENING BID IN THE 2028 PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES.

AND HE'S DOING SO BY DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM TRUMP ON IRAN.

HOW TRUMP RESPONDS TO THAT WILL BE INTERESTING TO WATCH.

>> YES INDEED.

LET ME ASK YOU, ALI VAEZ, WE'VE TALKED TO YOU A LOT ABOUT THE CURRENT STATUS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN.

AND YOU STUDY THAT A LOT.

YOU'VE GOT YOUR FINGER ON THE PULSE.

DO YOU THINK AND ARE THE PEOPLE WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO IN THE MIDDLE EAST, YOU KNOW, WORLD, WHAT DO THEY THINK?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, THERE'S DEFINITELY STILL THE RISK THAT A PRESIDENT WHO HAS LOST AT THE BALLOT BOX MIGHT FEEL THAT HE NEEDS REDEMPTION IN THE BATTLEFIELD.

AND I THINK ONE PARTICULAR PROBLEM THAT A LOT OF THE REGIONAL COUNTRIES, ESPECIALLY THE ONES INVOLVED IN MEDIATION LIKE THE QATARIS AND THE PAKISTANIS ARE WORRIED ABOUT AT THIS POINT IS THE IRANIANS ARE PRETTY DETERMINED TO TURN PRESIDENT TRUMP INTO ANOTHER PRESIDENT CARTER, MEANING TO POLITICALLY DEFEAT HIM BY DRAGGING THIS CONFRONTATION OUT AND NOT REALIZING THAT NOW MIGHT BE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO TRY TO GET HIM A FACE-SAVING WAY OUT OF THIS CONFLICT.

HE IS CERTAINLY WEAKENED POLITICALLY AT HOME BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE UNITED STATES IS WEAKENED MILITARILY AND WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO RESUME THIS WAR.

>> OKAY.

SO THAT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE I READ IT TO RAHM EMANUEL AS WELL.

BUT MOSA REZAI, WHO IS THE SUPREME NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER AND A FORMER IRGC COMMANDER, HE TWEETED OR X- ED THAT THE IRANIAN NATION HANDED TRUMP A STRATEGIC DEFEAT ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND IN THE HORMUZ AND A POLITICAL DEFEAT IN WASHINGTON.

MEANWHILE, AMERICANS GOT STUCK WITH THE BILL FOR THIS WAR.

ANYONE WHO TAKES ON IRAN WILL PAY THE PRICE, FROM THE BATTLEFIELD TO THEIR OWN DOORSTEP.

SO IS THAT ENCOURAGING?

IS THAT SMART DIPLOMACY?

OR IS HE JUST THUMPING HIS CHEST?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS COMING FROM THE IRANIANS THEMSELVES?

>> WELL, IT WOULD BE SMART IF THE IRANIANS WOULD ACTUALLY NOW SHOW MORE FLEXIBILITY NOW THAT THEY HAVE ACHIEVED THEIR OBJECTIVE AND HAVE SET A PRECEDENT.

THE IDEA FOR A MUCH WEAKER COUNTRY COMPARED TO THE UNITED STATES, THE IDEA FOR THE IRANIANS IS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT ANY FUTURE U. S. PRESIDENT IF HE OR SHE DECIDES TO GO TO WAR WITH IRAN IT WOULD COME AT A VERY HIGH POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC COST.

THIS IS HOW IRAN WOULD BE ABLE TO RESTORE DETERRENCE.

THAT IS THE IDEA.

BUT THIS PRESIDENT AT THIS POINT HAS VERY LITTLE TO LOSE.

SO IF THE IRANIANS DON'T GIVE HIM WHAT HE NEEDS, WHICH IS SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN WHAT WAS ON THE OFFER BACK IN JUNE WHEN THEY SIGNED THE MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING, THE SO-CALLED ISLAMABAD M. O. U. , THEN IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE GIVEN THE DEGREE OF ASSETS THAT THE U. S. HAS AMASSED IN THE REGION THAT HE MIGHT DECIDE TO TRY TO FINISH THE JOB, WHATEVER THAT EXACTLY MEANS.

>> YEAH.

AND CERTAINLY HE'S BEING ENCOURAGED IF WE BELIEVE ALL THE REPORTS BY THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, NETANYAHU.

ED LUCE, ABOUT EUROPE AND OTHER WESTERN ALLIES, WHETHER THEY'RE NATO ALLIES OR ALLIES THAT MAKE UP THE E. U. , CLEARLY THAT'S A FRAYED RELATIONSHIP.

THE TRANS-ATLANTIC RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN TESTED BEYOND, ALMOST BEYOND ITS BOUNDARIES.

DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY SALVE ON THE HORIZON?

DO YOU THINK TRUMP WILL CONTINUE THIS, YOU KNOW, HOLDING EUROPE HOSTAGE ECONOMICALLY, THE CONSTANT TARIFFS AND THE THREATS WITH NATO AND WHAT HE'LL DO WITH UKRAINE AND RUSSIA, ET CETERA?

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT CHANGING IF AT ALL?

>> IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

THE LAST TIME TRUMP WAS DEFEATED EUROPE I THINK UNEQUIVOCALLY BELIEVED JOE BIDEN, WHO WON IN 2020, THAT AMERICA WAS BACK AND THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD BEEN AN APPRATION.

I THINK THERE'S NOW QUITE A STRONG SENSE OF ONCE BITTEN QUITE SHY AND THAT EVEN IF TRUMP DOES SURPRISE HIS CRITICS AND BEHAVE LIKE A TYPICAL AMERICAN PRESIDENT, WHICH IS TO REACH ACROSS THE AISLE HERE DOMESTICALLY TO THE DEMOCRATS, WHERE HE HAS BIPARTISAN INITIATIVES AND TO BE MORE EMOLLIENT ON THE WORLD STAGE THAT EUROPE HAS COMMITTED TO DOING SOMETHING IN TERMS OF RAISING ITS DEFENSE SPENDING, IN TERMS OF SHOULDERING MORE OF THE BURDEN, THAT IT'S PRETTY MUCH CONCEDED IT ALWAYS OF SHOULD HAVE BEEN COMMITTED TO.

I DON'T THINK THAT EUROPE'S GOING TO BE QUITE SO EXPECTANT THAT WE'LL SEE A DIFFERENT KIND OF TRUMP, BUT I ALSO THINK EUROPE'S GOING TO PERSIST ON ITS CURRENT COURSE, WHICH IS TO BE SPENDING QUITE A LOT MORE MONEY ON DEFENSE AND TO TRY AND FILL THE BIG BUDGET GAPS THAT UKRAINE IS WARNING THAT IT'S GOING TO BE EXPERIENCING THIS WINTER.

>> AND JUST TO STAY WITH EUROPE FOR A SECOND AND THE SO-CALLED MIDDLE POWERS, EUROPE PLUS COUNTRIES LIKE CANADA HAVE FAMOUSLY BEEN TROIG TO DO WORKAROUNDS.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP IS SUNDERED.

IN THE WORDS OF CARNEY, WHAT DID HE SAY?

THIS ISN'T AN EVOLUTION.

IT'S A RUPTURE.

YOU THINK THAT IS ALSO GOING TO BE BAKED IN NOW TO FUTURE TRANS-ATLANTIC RELATIONS, THAT IT'S NOT JUST GOING TO BE EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES, IT'S GOING TO BE A MUCH MORE DIVERSE GROUP OF ALLIANCES, ED?

>> I THINK SO.

I MEAN, IT'S VERY, VERY HARD TO SORT OF ANTICIPATE, YOU KNOW, WHAT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT WOULD, SHOULD THAT PERSON BE ELECTED IN '28, WHAT THAT PERSON WOULD INHERIT.

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN CHANGED.

THE USAID, FOR EXAMPLE, NO LONGER EXISTS.

HOW WOULD THEY COPE WITH THAT?

BUT IF YOU'RE MARK CARNEY, FOR EXAMPLE, AND YOU'VE HAD THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WITH WHOM YOU SHARE THE LONGEST BORDER IN THE WORLD AND ONE OF THE OLDEST FRIENDSHIPS MAKE SUCH CONSISTENT PREDATORY DESIGNS ON YOU, ECHOED BY EVERYBODY WHO WORKS FOR HIM AND MOST OF THE PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT'S JUST RECEIVED SUCH A DRUBBING, I SUSPECT YOU'RE GOING TO CONTINUE ON WITH WHAT YOU'VE PLEDGED YOUR ELECTORATE TO DO.

AND CARNEY, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE NOT OVERLOOKED THE FACT HAS A 70% APPROVAL RATING, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH UNHEARD OF IN TODAY'S DEMOCRATIC WORLD.

>> EXACTLY.

ALI VAEZ, WHEN YOU -- THE SAME SORT OF QUESTION ABOUT ALLIANCES AND BEING ABLE TO TRUST THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER IT'S TRUM OR OTHERWISE.

YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN HAMMERED, THE GULF STATES, FOR INSTANCE, SAUDI ARABIA IN THIS FIRST PHASE OF WAR ON IRAN, THAT THAT WAS THE RETALIATION.

NOW SAUDI ARABIA IS DOUBLY Y WOUNDED BECAUSE OF THE HOUTHI ATTACKS.

AND IT'S SHATTERED THE ILLUSION OF THIS SAFE AND SECURE AND MONEY-FUNDED BEHEMOTH IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PARTICULARLY AFTER THIS ELECTION THAT PEOPLE LIKE MBS IN SAUDI ARABIA OR THE LEADERS OF THE UAE, QATAR AND OTHERS WILL THINK ABOUT HOW THEY CAN DEPEND ON THEIR SECURITY AND OTHER THINGS FROM THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, NOT ONLY THE U. S. STARTED TWO WARS AGAINST IRAN IN THE COURSE OF SLIGHTLY MORE THAN A YEAR, DESPITE OPPOSITION FROM ITS ALLIES IN THE REGION WHO KNEW THEY WOULD BE CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE, BUT THEY ALSO FAILED TO PROTECT THEM EFFECTIVELY AGAINST IRAN.

SO THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM OF CREDIBILITY.

THERE IS REAL DOUBTS ABOUT THE U. S. SECURITY UMBRELLA IN THE REGION.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, CHRISTIANE, THERE IS ALSO NOT A LOT OF ALTERNATIVES IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE TO THE GULF COUNTRIES.

THE CORE OF THEIR DEFENSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE IS AMERICAN AND IS LIKELY TO REMAIN AMERICAN IN THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE TRYING TO HEDGE THEIR BETS, ALL OF THEM IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

SOME LIKE SAUDI ARABIA HAVE ENTERED INTO THIS DEFENSIVE PACT WITH PAKISTAN AND TURKEY WHICH IS CALLED THE MECCA PACT.

AND IT'S SORT OF LIKE A NATO ARTICLE 5 JOINT DEFENSE COMMITMENT.

BUT EVEN WITH THE ACTS COMMITTED BY THE HOUTHIS IN THE PAST TWO WEEKS WE HAVEN'T SEEN THESE COUNTRIES DELIVERING MUCH IN SAUDI ARABIA'S DEFENSE.

SOME OTHERS ARE GETTING TECHNOLOGY FROM UKRAINE AND LOOKING TOWARDS ISRAEL OR OTHER WAYS OF LAYERING THEIR SECURITY.

BUT WITHOUT ANY DOUBT THE IMAGE OF THE U. S. S AT THE HEGEMON OF THE REGION HAS BEEN SHATTERED.

>> SO ALI, WHO DO YOU THINK TAKES ON THE IMAGE OF THE SECURITY DOMINANT IN THAT REGION?

IS IT --YOU JUST SAID PROBABLY NOT THE UNITED STATES.

IRAN CLEARLY WANTS TO BE INVOLVED IN ANY SECURITY ARRANGEMENT FOR THE REGION.

AND ISRAEL BELIEVES THAT IT IS THE MOST, YOU KNOW, ABLE TO TAKE ON THAT ROLE.

BUT AGAIN, ISRAEL IS IN THE MIDDLE OF TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER A GOVERNING COALITION AFTER ITS ELECTIONS.

WHAT DO YOU FORESEE IN TERMS OF ALIGNMENTS AND REALIGNMENTS IN THAT REGION NOW?

>> WELL, THIS ELECTORAL RESULT IN THE MIDTERMS CANNOT BE GOOD NEWS FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IN ISRAEL GENERALLY.

EVEN IF THE NEXT TWO MONTHS THE LAME DUCK PERIOD IS USED TO PUSH PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BECOME NOT JUST AN ANGRY DUCK BUT A FLAME DUCK AND START ANOTHER MAJOR ESCALATION AGAINST IRAN.

I THINK THE ERA OF ISRAEL DRAGGING THE U. S. INTO ENDLESS WARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS BEGINNING TO END.

AND THEN THE QUESTION REALLY BECOMES WILL THE REGION BE ABLE TO TAKE AGENCY OVER ITS OWN FATE AND CREATE A REGIONAL SECURITY ARRANGEMENT THAT IS MORE SUSTAINABLE?

AGAIN, THERE ARE SOME EARLY SIGNS WE SAW THE MECCA PACT COUNTRIES GOING TO TEHRAN TWO WEEKS AGO STARTING TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT AN INCLUSIVE SECURITY ARCHITECTURE.

IF THEY ARE PUSHED IN THAT DIRECTION THERE IS I THINK MORE HOPE FOR A STABLE MIDDLE EAST.

IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN AND WE GO THROUGH FURTHER ESCALATION, THEN IT'S A MUCH MORE FRAGMENTED AND POLARIZED MIDDLE EAST COULD EMERGE WHICH WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE UNSTABLE THAN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN SO FAR.

>> AND ED, OF COURSE, THE BIG QUESTION FOR EUROPE AND FRANKLY THE WORLD IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN EUROPE WITH RUSSIA TRYING TO PRESS ITS ADVANTAGE AND TRUMP REALLY HAVING SORT OF SWITCHED SIDES, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF STILL NOT GIVING EVERYTHING TO THE UKRAINIANS THAT THEY NEED BUT MORE THAN THAT PLAYING PUTIN'S GAME WHEREBY ALLOWING PUTIN TO PEEL OFF THE UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, FILE FROM ALL THE OTHER THINGS HE WANTS TO TALK TO TRUMP ABOUT AND TRUMP'S AGREEING.

DO YOU SEE THAT RECALIBRATING?

AND HOW NECESSARY IS IT TO RECALIBRATE?

>> WELL, IT'S INTERESTING.

AS YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, TRUMP MADE THIS MOVE TO IMPORT RUSSIAN DIESEL IN A VAIN BID TO GET U. S. DIESEL PRICE ARES DOWN.

NOT MUCH DIESEL ARRIVED.

SOME MORE IS SCHEDULED.

HAD NO IMPACT ON THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS AND PROBABLY DID AND WILL HAVE QUITE A BIG IMPACT ON PUTIN'S FIREPOWER, FINANCIAL FIREPOWER TO PROSECUTE THIS WAR.

THIS HAS CAUSED I THINK DEEPER OUTRAGE IN EUROPE THAN ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE TRUMP HAS DONE ON THE UKRAINE FRONT.

AND ALTHOUGH CONGRESS HAS VERY LIMITED CONTROL OVER FOREIGN POLICY, IT CAN PASS NEW FUNDING FOR UKRAINE.

AND I SUSPECT WILL.

DEMOCRATIC LEADERS ARE BULLISH ON THAT PROSPECT.

AND DARE TRUMP TO VETO IT.

AND THEY CAN CALL IT THE LINDSEY GRAHAM BILL IF THEY LIKE AFTER THE LATE REPUBLICAN SENATOR WHOSE SISTER FAILED TO HOLD HIS SOUTH CAROLINA SEAT LAST NIGHT.

BUT I DO THINK THAT ON THAT ISSUE IF WE SEE TRUMP PERSISTING WITH THIS RUSSIAN TILT YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A VERY ACTIVE CONGRESS WORKING WITH EUROPEANS TO HELP UKRAINE.

>> AND JUST TO FOLLOW ON THAT, OBVIOUSLY, IS WHAT IF MORE FAR RIGHT GROUPS GET ELECTED, LET'S SAY IN FRANCE AND OTHER PLACES, WHICH ARE HISTORICALLY AND ON THE RECORD AS SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE ANY MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE?

LIKE LE PEN AND AFD AND ALL OF THAT.

>> I'D SAY A COUPLE OF THINGS ABOUT LE PEN.

IT DOES LOOK LIKE ON CURRENT COURSE SHE'S GOING TO WIN NEXT SPRING, IN THE NEXT FRENCH PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

BUT JUST TWO CAVEATS TO THAT.

THE FIRST IS LOOK AT THE GEORGIA MELONI EXAMPLE IN ITALY.

SHE WAS EXPECTED TO MAKE A PRO-RUSSIAN TURN BECAUSE A LOT OF THE ITALIAN RIGHT SHARE THE FRENCH RIGHT'S SENTIMENTS AND INDEED THE MAGA RIGHT'S SENTIMENTS TOWARD PUTIN.

BUT SHE DIDN'T.

SHE UPHELD A STRONG ATLANTICIST LINE ON THE UKRAINE WAR.

AND SECOND, FRANCE IS NOT A VERY BIG CONTRIBUTOR TO UKRAINE.

IT'S QUITE BIG RHETORICALLY AND OF COURSE IT'S PART OF THE U. N. SECURITY COUNCIL BUT IT COMES FIFTH OR SIXTH I BELIEVE AMONGST EUROPEAN DONORS, WAY BEHIND POLAND, GERMANY, BRITAIN.

AND SO THE FINANCIAL LACK WOULDN'T BE FELT AS KEENLY AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE.

BUT IT WOULD BE --IT WOULD BE A REJUVENATION OF THE SORT OF INTERNATIONAL FAR RIGHT IF LE PEN WON.

AND SO I CAUTION WITH ALL THESE ELECTIONS, DON'T EXTRAPOLATE TOO FAR.

>> I WISH WE COULD CARRY ON.

WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

ED LUCE FROM THE "FINANCIAL TIMES. "

ALI VAEZ FROM THE CRISIS GROUP.

THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON THIS DAY.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, IN THE WAKE OF THE HISTORIC MIDTERM RESULTS I SPOKE TO THE PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR BARBARA KINGSOLVER ABOUT THE ROLE OF ARTISTS AND CULTURE IN A DIVIDED AMERICA.

AS A LONG-TIME ACTIVIST KINGSOLVER HAS ALWAYS TAKEN ON POLITICAL THEMES IN HER WORK.

HER NEW NOVEL "PARTITA" ASKS WHAT IS ART FOR AND WHAT DOES IT MATTER.

LATER THIS WEEK WE'LL TALK TO HER ABOUT HER NOVELS AND WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THE RURAL COMMUNITIES LIKE HER OWN.

>> IT'S A REALLY HAPPY MORNING TO WAKE UP IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

AND I'M GOING TO SAY THAT FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

ONE IS THAT WE SAW THAT MONEY CANNOT BUY ELECTIONS.

TEXAS IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE.

WHERE I THINK ELON MUSK SPENT $500 MILLION TO TRY TO BUY THAT ELECTION.

AND THAT ELECTION WAS WON BY INTEGRITY.

THAT'S TEXAS.

THE SAME HAS HAPPENED IN A LOT OF RURAL PARTS OF THIS COUNTRY.

WHICH GIVES ME A LOT OF HOPE.

I'M A RURAL PERSON.

I REPRESENT IN MY WRITING RURAL AMERICA.

AND I THINK THAT WE'VE GOTTEN A BAD RAP.

I THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN OUR TRUE COLORS TODAY.

>> WELL, INTERESTING BECAUSE YOUR LATEST BOOK ITA" IS ABOUT RURAL AMERICA TO AN EXTENT.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU JUST TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

PRESIDENT OBAMA POSTED THAT THIS WAS A MESSAGE THAT AMERICA NEEDS TO HEAL, THAT ALL SIDES NEED TO GET BACK TOGETHER AGAIN THAT THERE'S JUST SO MUCH POISON, SO MUCH DIVISION THAT HAS BEEN SOWED.

DO YOU FEEL THE SAME WAY AND DO YOU THINK IT'S POSSIBLE, CERTAINLY FROM WHERE YOU'RE SITTING IN RURAL AMERICA?

>> I ABSOLUTELY THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.

I THINK THE PROBLEM, THE PROBLEM WITH RURAL AMERICA IS THAT WE DON'T FEEL SEEN, WE DON'T FEEL HEARD.

OUR PROBLEMS HAVE NOT BEEN ON THE RADAR OF EITHER POLITICAL LEADERS OR CULTURAL LEADERS.

WE DON'T SEE OURSELVES REPRESENTED.

WE DON'T SEE OUR PROBLEMS, OUR NUANCED LIVES, OUR GENEROSITY, OUR --THE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO US JUST DON'T SHOW UP IN AMERICAN CULTURE.

AND THAT'S WHY I WRITE FROM THE PLACE I LIVE AS A SOUTHERN APPALACHIAN RURAL PERSON, TO TRY TO HELP TRY TO REPRESENT THESE LIVES.

>> YOU KNOW, BEFORE AGAIN I GO TO "PARTITA" LET ME FOLLOW UP ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID BECAUSE YOUR BOOK "DEMON COPPERHEAD" WHICH WAS A MASSIVE MULTIMILLION DOLLAR SELLING BOOK, PULITZER PRIZE WINNING AND IT DID AADDRESS A MAJOR ISSUE WHICH WAS THE OPIOID ADDICTION CRISIS, THE DEATHS OF SO MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA.

THAT I REMEMBER IN TRUMP 1.

0 THEY PROMISED TO DEAL WITH.

AND TRUMP CAME TO POWER BECAUSE HE CONVINCED PEOPLE IN RURAL AMERICA BY AND LARGE, RUST BELTY AMERICA AND FLYOVER STATE AMERICA QUOTE UNQUOTE, THAT HE WOULD HEAR THEM AND HE WOULD REPRESENT THEM.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OPIOID I GUESS VICTIMS?

>> WELL, WE HAVE --THE OPIOID CRISIS HAS NOT GONE AWAY BECAUSE WE HAVE A GENERATION OF KIDS ORPHANED BY THAT CRISIS.

AND I DON'T KNOW THAT TRUMP NECESSARILY PROMISED TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHY PEOPLE VOTED FOR HIM.

I THINK WHAT HE PROMISED WAS TO SEE RURAL PEOPLE, TO HELP GET RURAL PEOPLE BACK TO WORK AND NOT TO CONDESCEND, WHICH IS WHAT WE'RE SO ACCUSTOMED TO.

BUT OBVIOUSLY HE FAILED.

HE DIDN'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

AND HE HAS BEEN TOO BUSY PAINTING HIS ROOMS GOLD TO CARE ABOUT US.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE JUST SEEN.

MY JOB IS TO WRITE STORIES, TO TELL STORIES THAT CAN BE BOTH MIRRORS AND WINDOWS.

I WRITE FROM RURAL AMERICA SO THAT RURAL PEOPLE CAN SEE THEMSELVES REPRESENTED NOT IN A STEREOTYPED WAY BUT IN A REALISTIC WAY BUT ALSO AS A WINDOW FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THESE REGIONS TO LOOK IN AND SEE WHAT LIFE IS LIKE AND WHAT WE REALLY NEED AND WHO WE REALLY ARE.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT JUST CHECK OUT OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.