>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE PENTAGON IS DELAYING THE DELIVERY OF MISSILES THAT WE HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR.

>> UKRAINE WONDERS WHERE IS THE UNITED STATES.

WE'LL LOOK AT THE LATEST THINKING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AND WHAT IT COULD MEAN FOR THE BATTLEFIELD.

THEN -- >> YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE $5,000 IN YOUR POCKET.

AND ECONOMIC SUCCESS FOR OUR COUNTRY LIKE WE HAVE NEVER, EVER SEEN BEFORE.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP RALLIES HIS BASE AS THE CLOCK TICKS DOWN TO THE MIDTERMS.

ECONOMIST JARED BERNSTEIN JOINS ME ON INFLATION, U. S. WORKERS AND WHETHER THE AI BOOM IS A BUBBLE ABOUT TO BURST.

PLUS -- WILL KIM JONG UN AND TRUMP MEET AGAIN?

AS SPECULATION MOUNTS, WE LOOK BACK AT 1990s NORTH KOREA AND THE HEROIC STORY OF MISS KATHI, WHO BROUGHT LIFE-SAVING CARE TO STARVING FAMILIES.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> I THINK ANY ASSUMPTION THAT CHINESE COMPANIES ARE INHERENTLY OUT TO BUILD SOMETHING BAD OR REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IS A VERY NAIVE DEMONIZATION OF CHINESE COMPANIES.

>> KAI-FU LEE, FORMER PRESIDENT OF GOOGLE CHINA, TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY HE BLEECHBZ ELIEVES THE FEAR OF BEIJING'S AI AMBITIONS HAS GONE TOO FAR.

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>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURING DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WITH TWO WEEKS TO GO IN THE MIDTERMS PRESIDENT TRUMP IS OUT CAMPAIGNING HARD, HOPING TO AVOID LOSING BOTH THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

BUT THE POLLS AREN'T LOOKING GOOD FOR HIP.

WITH HIS APPROVE RATING AT A RECORD LOW OF 31% ACCORDING TO A NEW REUTERS/IPSOS POLL A MAJOR CONCERN AMONG VOTERS IS THE ECONOMY.

THE PRESIDENT AAPPEARS TO BE HOPING THAT PRESSURING UKRAINE INTO STOPPING ITS STRIKES ON RUSSIAN DIESEL FACILITIES MIGHT HELP EASE COSTS FOR AMERICAN CONSUMERS.

THIS COMBINED WITH A RUSSIA DIESEL DEAL HAS EVEN SOME REPUBLICANS SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS OVER TRUMP'S APPARENT SOFTENING STANCE ON PUTIN.

UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS INCREASINGLY OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THE SHIFT FROM THE WHITE HOUSE AS THE COUNTRY BRACES FOR ANOTHER WINTER OF WAR.

KEVIN LIP TAK IS FOLLOWING ALL OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS FROM WASHINGTON AND JOINS ME NOW WITH THE DETAILS.

SO KEVIN, AS WE'RE SEEING CONTINUED STRIKES ON CIVILIANS BY RUSSIA IN UKRAINE, THE PRESIDENT SEEMS TO BE DOUBLING DOWN ON BLAMING UKRAINE FOR THE STATE OF THE WAR AND YESTERDAY SAID THAT "RUSSIA HAS BEEN FINE ON UKRAINE AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING MUCH. "

WHAT EXPLAINS THIS RENEWED ASSESSMENT OR THIS RENEWED ANGER AGAINST ZELENSKYY?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM EXPERTS?

>> YEAH, AND IT IS REMARKABLE.

IT'S CLEARLY NOW BACK TO THE LEVEL OF RELATIONSHIP WHEN THE TWO WERE IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SHOUTING AT ZELENSKYY JUST A MONTH INTO HIS TERM.

WHEN YOU TALK TO WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS, THEY DO SAY THAT THIS IS ROOTED IN PART BY THE PRESIDENT'S POLITICAL FRUSTRATIONS, THAT BECAUSE ENERGY PRICES, YOU KNOW, GAS AND DIESEL IN THE UNITED STATES ARE HIGHER HE'S CATCHING THE BLAME FROM VOTERS AND THE PRESIDENT I THINK CLEARLY LOOKING TO ZELENSKYY AS A SCAPEGOAT IN A LOT OF WAYS FOR SOME OF THOSE POLITICAL WOES THAT HE'S EXPERIENCING NOW TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

THE OTHER, YOU KNOW, BACKDROP TO THE PRESIDENT'S FRUSTRATION HERE IS THIS RENEWED ATTEMPT TO TRY AND COME UP WITH A PEACE PLAN TO END THE CONFLICT.

WHAT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM SEEM TO HAVE DEVISED IS A STRATEGY THAT WOULD OFFER THESE ECONOMIC INCENTIVES TO VLADIMIR PUTIN AND TO RUSSIA IN ORDER TO CONVINCE THEM TO COME BACK TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AND TO COME UP WITH SOME SORT OF NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT.

AND YOU SEE THAT IN WHAT STEVE WITKOFF IS DOING IN OSLO, COMING WITH THIS PLAN.

OFFICIALS DESCRIBE IT AS SORT OF ON TWO PARALLEL TRACKS.

ONE IS TRYING TO CONVINCE UKRAINE THAT THE U. S. WILL COME UP WITH SECURITY GUARANTEES TO ENSURE THAT RUSSIA DOESN'T INVADE FURTHER ONCE THE WAR ENDS.

THAT WOULD ALSO INCLUDE AN ECONOMIC PACKAGE FOR RECONSTRUCTION IN UKRAINE ONCE THE WAR ENDS.

THE OTHER PART OF THIS PARALLEL TRACK PEACE EFFORT IS DIRECTED TOWARDS RUSSIA TO COME UP WITH SOME ECONOMIC INCENTIVES TO PUTIN TO COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

AND THAT I THINK EXPLAINS WHY THE PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN SO MANY STEPS REALLY JUST OVER THE LAST WEEK THAT SEEMED INTENDED TO REHABILITATE RUSSIA IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, WHETHER IT'S HOLDING OFF SANCTIONS AS PART OF THE LINDSEY GRAHAM PACKAGE.

WHETHER IT'S ALLOWING RUSSIA TO SELL ITS DIESEL ON THE INTERNATIONAL MARKETPLACE.

ALL OF THESE STEPS THAT REALLY AMOUNT TO A REMARKABLE REVERSAL OF LONG-STANDING U. S. POSITION WHEN IT COMES TO THIS CONFLICT, WHICH IS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

THE PRESIDENT VERY MUCH BACKING OFF ALL OF THAT.

AND I THINK AS YOU LOOK AT WHAT HE'S BEEN SAYING CLEARLY HIS FRUSTRATIONS WITH ZELENSKYY ARE ROOTED IN PART IN THIS IDEA THAT ZELENSKYY KEEPS TARGETING THOSE RUSSIAN DIESEL REFINERIES WHICH THE PRESIDENT SAYS IS JACKING UP PRICES IN THE U. S. BUT HE'S ALSO ACCUSING ZELENSKYY OF NOT BEING WILLING TO AGREE TO ANY CEASEFIRE PACKAGE WHEN IN FACT IT IS RUSSIA THAT BEGAN THE WAR AND PRESUMABLY RUSSIA COULD END THE WAR IF IT HALTED ITS INVASION.

AND SO IT IS I THINK A VERY FRAUGHT MOMENT IN THIS U. S.

-UKRAINE RELATIONSHIP.

NOW, FROM OSLO WITKOFF WILL BE GOING TO RUSSIA IN THE HOPES OF MEETING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN TO TRY TO IN THE WORDS OF ONE U. S. OFFICIAL, TO TEST THIS PROPOSITION TO SEE WHETHER EVEN THIS IS ENOUGH TO GET PUTIN TO AGREE TO FURTHER PEACE TALKS.

>> SIMILAR PROPOSITIONS HAVE BEEN PUT ON THE TABLE AND THEY TOO HAVE FAILED.

KEVIN, WE ALSO SEE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NOT HOLDING BACK AND ACCUSING THE UNITED STATES OF WITHHOLDING NOT ONLY INTELLIGENCE BUT ALSO PATRIOT INTERCEPTORS.

SECRETARY OF STATE AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER MARCO RUBIO SPOKE WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TODAY BY PHONE AND THEN SPOKE WITH REPORTERS AND SAID THAT NOTHING IS BEING INTENTIONALLY WITHHELD OR DELIBERATELY DENIED.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON?

>> YEAH.

AND WHAT ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS INSIST IS THAT THE U. S. IS NOT PUNISHING UKRAINE BY NOT PROVIDING SOME OF THESE PATRIOT MISSILES.

INSTEAD THEY SAY THAT THIS IS A RESULT OF STOCKPILE PROBLEMS.

OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT THOSE WERE AGGRAVATED BY THE WAR IN IRAN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND AMERICAN OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN WORRIED NOW FOR MONTHS THAT THOSE STOCKPILES ARE DWINDLING, THAT THE PATRIOTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED TO DEFEND AMERICAN POSITIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST ARE RUNNING IN SHORT SUPPLY.

THAT IS PART OF WHAT AMERICAN OFFICIALS SAY IS HAPPENING IN THIS INSTANCE.

THE OTHER I THINK UNEXPLAINED QUESTION THAT WE HAVE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN UKRAINE IS THE HALTAGE OR AT LEAST SLOWING OF THE STARLINK SERVICES THAT UKRAINE RELIES ON FOR ITS MISSES AND DRONES.

THE U. S. HAS SAID THAT THAT WASN'T INTENTIONAL BUT THEY HAVEN'T REALLY OFFERED AN EXPLANATION FOR WHAT REALLY WENT ON THERE.

>> YEAH.

SPACEX, ELON MUSK POINTING THE FINGER AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE WHITE HOUSE POINTING THE FINGER AT SPACEX AND ELON MUSK.

AND MARCO RUBIO SAYING NOTHING IS BEING DELIBERATELY DENIED.

AT THE VERY LEAST THE TIMING IS EXTREMELY SUSPECT HERE.

KEVIN LIPTAK, THANK YOU.

> >> AND NOW LET'S DRILL DOWN ON THE ECONOMIC PICTURE AHEAD OF THE MID-TERPS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PROMISED $5,000 CHECKS FOR EVERY ADULT AMERICAN CITIZEN IF THE GOP RETAINS CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE, A PROPOSAL THAT WOULD COST MORE THAN $1 TRILLION.

ONE AREA WHERE THE PRESIDENT CAN CLAIM SUCCESS IS THE STOCK MARKET, WHICH HAS REACHED RECORD HIGHS ON HIS WATCH.

BUT EVEN THAT ECONOMIC BRIGHT SPOT CARRIES SOME NERVOUSNESS WITH SOME OBSERVERS FEARING THE GROWTH IS THANKS IN LARGE PART TO AN AMOUNT I BUBBLE.

TO TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL LET'S BRING IN JARED BERNSTEIN AN ECONOMIST AND FORMER CHAIR OF THE WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL ON ECONOMIC ADVISERS UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

JARED, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

WE KNOW TRUMP ENTERED OFFICE FOR A SECOND TERM PROMISING TO BRING PRICES DOWN.

HE CONTINUES TO BLAME PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR HIGH PRICES, FOR INFLATION.

NOW VOTERS ARE HEADING TO THE POLLS IN JUST TWO WEEKS' TIME.

AND AS YOU SEE FROM POLL TAKEN AFTER POLL TAKEN THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THE ECONOMY AND FRUSTRATION ABOUT HOW THE PRESIDENT HAS HANDLED IT.

SO LOOKING BEYOND JUST THE STOCK MARKET AND EVEN THE HEADLINE GROWTH FIGURES, WHAT IS THE STATE OF THE U. S. ECONOMY RIGHT NOW?

>> THE STATE IS ONE IN WHICH AFFORDABILITY IS A REAL CONSTRAINT FOR THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN FAMILIES AND HOUSEHOLDS.

THEY'RE HAVING MORE TROUBLE THAN THEY EXPECTED MAKING ENDS MEET WHEN IT COMES TO GROCERIES, HOUSING, HEALTH CARE, PAYING FOR THEIR UTILITY BILLS.

ALL OF THESE ARE RACKING UP.

AND THEY KNOW THAT THOSE PRICES ARE EXACERBATED BY PRECISELY WHAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT RECENTLY ON THE SHOW, PARTICULARLY TARIFFS, THE WAR IN IRAN, ALSO SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS IN THE AI SECTOR, AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT PEOPLE'S HOURLY PAY IS ACTUALLY LAGGING INFLATION.

THE REAL BUYING POWER OF THEIR PAYCHECK IS DOWN.

INTEREST RATES ARE UP.

PRICES ARE UP.

AND ALL OF THIS IS IN DIRECT CONTRAST TO EXACTLY WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID HE WOULD DO FOR THEM.

THE PROBLEM FOR THE PRESIDENT, FOR THE REPUBLICANS IS NOT JUST THAT THESE AFFORDABILITY PROBLEMS ARE ACROSS THE LAND, IT'S THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHO TO BLAME AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT'S SHOWING UP IN THE POLLS.

>> I WONDER IF THERE'S A BIT OF DEJA VU FOR YOU HERE.

BECAUSE AGAIN, LOOKING AT THESE NUMBERS AS A WHOLE UNEMPLOYMENT AROUND 4%, RETAIL SALES ARE STRONG, THE INDUSTRIAL OUTPUT IS HIGH, AND YET YOU SEE THIS DISSATISFACTION FROM AMERICAN CONSUMERS.

YOU WERE IN A SIMILAR POSITION WHERE YOU WERE HAVING TO DEFEND THE ECONOMY UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

HOW MUCH OF THIS IS BASED ON HOW PEOPLE ARE JUST FEELING AS OPPOSED TO HOW THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING?

AND WE KNOW THAT GUT INSTINCT IS WHAT DRIVES A LOT OF PEOPLE TO MAKE POLITICAL DECISIONS WHEN THEY GO ACTUALLY TO VOTE.

WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE?

TO YOUR SUCCESSOR IN THIS VERY POSITION NOW.

>> PROBABLY TRY TO DO LESS HARM.

OKAY?

EVERYTHING YOU SAID IS CORRECT.

WE WERE STUCK WITH VERY MUCH THE SAME KIND OF SPLIT BETWEEN SOME PRETTY GOOD OVERALL ECONOMIC INDICATORS AND HOW PEOPLE WERE FEELING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

AND OF COURSE PEOPLE AREN'T PULLING THE VOTING LEVER BASED ON THE LATEST PRODUCTIVITY OR GDP REPORT.

THEY'RE PULLING IT BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL.

BUT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE HERE, WHICH IS --AND WE WERE DEFINITELY TRYING TO MAKE THINGS BETTER AND THIS TEAM KEEPS KICKING THE BALL IN THEIR OWN GOAL.

SIMPLY ENDING THE WAR IN IRAN --I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S A SIMPLE THING TO DO.

BUT SIMPLY ENDING THE WAR IN IRAN AND CEASING AND DESISTING ON THE TARIFFS WOULD TAKE THE INFLATION RATE DOWN CLOSE TO A PERCENTAGE POINT.

WHICH IS A VERY BIG DEAL FOR EVERYTHING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

SO MY ADVICE WOULD BE I GUESS TWOFOLD.

ONE, DON'T TRY TO TELL PEOPLE THEY'RE DOING BETTER THAN THEY THINK THEY ARE BECAUSE THAT WILL NEVER WORK.

AND TWO, DON'T MAKE THINGS WORSE.

>> SO I ASKED YOU HOW YOUR SUCCESSOR SHOULD RESPOND.

LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION I'M SURE YOU GET ASKED OFF CAMERA AT LEAST A LOT, AND THAT IS HOW THE FED SHOULD BE RESPONDING TO ALL OF THIS.

YOU'VE GOT HIGH ENERGY COSTS.

THEY'RE PUSHING PRICES UP.

THEY'RE SQUEEZING CONSUMERS.

IS THIS TEMPORARY?

WILL THIS ALL COME BACK ONCE THE WAR ENDS?

WHEN DOES THE WAR END?

WOULD KEEPING RATES HIGH NOW CONTAIN INFLATION OR WOULD IT JUST PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THE ECONOMY AND THE JOBS MARKET?

>> WELL, OF COURSE THOSE TWO DYNAMICS ARE VERY MUCH INTERTWINED IF THE FED, QUOTE, PUTS MORE PRESSURE ON THE ECONOMY, THAT IS, IF IT TAPS THE BRAKE WITH HIGHER INTEREST RATES THAT'S SUPPOSED TO SLOW DOWN INFLATION.

AND INFLATION HAS BEEN WELL ABOVE THEIR TARGET NOT FOR A MONTH OR A QUARTER BUT FOR FIVE-PLUS YEARS.

SO I THINK THERE'S A VERY COHERENT ARGUMENT THAT SAYS THE FED NEEDS TO KEEP PUTTING PRESSURE ON INTEREST RATES WHETHER THEY RAISE AT THEIR MEETING AT THE END OF THIS MONTH OR WHETHER THEY WAIT SOME TIME MAYBE OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE MIDTERMS, STAYING AWAY FROM POLITICS.

THAT'S SOMEWHAT IMMATERIAL.

THAT'S VERY NEAR-TERM KIND OF CONCERNS.

BROADLY SPEAKING, THEY REALLY HAVE TO GET INFLATION UNDER CONTROL.

AND THEY'RE PARTICULARLY KIRND ABOUT THIS IDEA OF INFLATIONARY EXPECTATIONS.

IF PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE FED'S AABILITY TO CONTROL THE INFLATION RATE, THAT IN ITSELF MAKES THE PROSPECTS FOR HIGHER INFLATION MORE LIKELY.

SO KEEPING INFLATIONARY EXPECTATIONS, QUOTE, ANCHORED, THAT'S THE PHRASE THEY LIKE TO USE, MEANS THEY HAVE TO BE VERY DILIGENT ABOUT THIS, AND THAT PROBABLY POINTS YOU IN THE DIRECTION OF MORE HIKES VERSUS A PAUSE OR CERTAINLY VERSUS ANY KIND OF A CUT.

>> WE KNOW HOW THE PRESIDENT WILL LIKELY RESPOND IF THE FED DOES DECIDE ON MORE HIKES.

ANOTHER PHENOMENON THAT YOU DID NOT HAVE TO DEAL WITH IS CONCERNS PERHAPS ABOUT THE ECONOMY BEING TOO FOCUSED, TOO MUCH DRIVEN BY ONE INDUSTRY, AND THAT IS AI.

AND YOU ARGUE THAT AI IS A FINANCIAL BUBBLE BECAUSE SPENDING IS RACING AHEAD OF REVENUE.

NO DOUBT THAT THIS IS SORT OF A GAME-CHANGING TECHNOLOGY THAT IS EVOLVING VERY QUICKLY.

SO WHY DO YOU SEE A BUBBLE, JARED, RIGHT NOW RATHER THAN PERHAPS UP-FRONT INVESTMENT TO A TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY AND SOMETHING THAT THAT TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY REQUIRES?

>> GREAT WAY OF FRAMING THE QUESTION BECAUSE I DO SEE WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS A LOT OF UP- FRONT INVESTMENT IN A TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY.

THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE MOSTLY WITH RYAN CUMMINGS ON AI AS A FINANCIAL BUBBLE SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE POTENTIAL TRANSFORMATIONAL IMPACT OF THIS SUPER IMPRESSIVE TECHNOLOGY AND MAYBE FOR MANY SUPER CONCERNING AND SCARY TECHNOLOGY.

BUT YOU CAN SEPARATE THAT ARE PROSPECTIVE GROWTH OR PRODUCTIVITY KIND OF OBSERVATION FROM THIS GAP BETWEEN THE AI SPEND, WHICH IS THROUGH THE ROOF TO USE THE TECHNICAL TERM, AND THE EXPECTATIONS OF AI REVENUES.

THAT GAP IS LEADING INVESTORS TO GET INCREASINGLY IMPATIENT ABOUT WHEN THESE FIRMS MIGHT TURN A PROFIT AND WHETHER THEY'LL DO SO WITHIN A TIME FRAME THAT INVESTORS ARE COMFORTABLE WITH.

WHEN WE STARTED OUT WRITING ABOUT AN AI BUBBLE, WE WERE KIND OF LONELY.

THERE IS NOW A MUCH BIGGER CROWD THAT'S CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

MANY INVESTORS VIEW THIS TRADE AS OVERCROWDED.

THEY'RE STARTING TO TALK ABOUT GETTING INTO MORE SAFE PARTS OF THE MARKET.

AND WHEN YOU SEE A KIND OF SPOOKING EVENT LIKE WHEN COREWEAVE RECENTLY GOT - - SHOWED SOME OF THEIR EARNINGS REPORTS THAT WERE OF GREAT CONCERN AND THERE WAS SOME DATA ON REVENUES THAT LEAKED FROM OPENAI, YOU SEE INVESTORS REALLY STARTING TO EXHIBIT THE PRECISE KINDS OF NERVOUSNESS THAT WE WORRIED ABOUT GIVEN THIS REALLY MULTITRILLION-DOLLAR GAP BETWEEN SPEND AND PROSPECTIVE REVENUES.

SO YOU CAN HAVE A FINANCIAL BUBBLE, AND I THINK WE PROBABLY DO, AND STILL BE TALKING ABOUT AN ULTIMATELY TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGY.

>> SO IF THIS IS A BUBBLE THAT DOES END UP BURSTING BEYOND JUST SILICON VALLEY AND EARLY INVESTORS HERE, HOW WOULD THAT BUBBLE IMPACT THE OVERALL ECONOMY?

>> WELL, HERE I HAVE SOME PROBABLY LESS GOOD NEWS THAN PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR, OR AT LEAST LESS GOOD SPECULATION.

MANY FOLKS ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION GOES BACK TO THE DOTCOM BUBBLE THAT BURST AT THE END OF THE '90s, AND THEY ARGUE THAT THAT REALLY WASN'T THAT BIG A DEAL IN TERMS OF, SAY, GDP GROWTH, AND IT WASN'T.

GDP GROERKTS WTH, THE GROWTH OF THE OVERALL ECONOMY KIND OF THEREATENED AND THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE DID GO UP TWO POINTS BUT THE DOTCOM BUBBLE BURST WASN'T A BIG MACROECONOMIC EVENT.

UNFORTUNATELY THE EXTENT OF AI INVESTMENT IS MULTIPLES OF THAT FROM THE DOTCOM BUBBLE.

SO IF THIS BUBBLE BURST INSTEAD OF A VERY MILD AND UNNOTICEABLE DECLINE IN GDP WE WOULD PROBABLY SEE THE OVERALL ECONOMY CONTRACTING BY MAYBE A POINT AND A HALF, MAYBE TWO POINTS, WHICH IS A BIG DEAL.

WE EXPECT THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE TO GO UP CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN THE TWO POINTS THAT IT WENT UP WHEN THE DOTCOM BUBBLE BURST.

SO IF THE AI BUBBLE, GIVEN ITS MAGNITUDE, SHOULD BURST, WE SEE SOME PRETTY SIGNIFICANT MACROECONOMIC DAMAGE BUT THERE'S ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE WHICH IS NOT THAT THE BUBBLE BURST BUT THAT THE BUBBLE GRADUALLY DEFLATES.

AND THIS IS KIND OF WHAT I WAS DESCRIBING A SECOND AGO.

A LOT OF INVESTORS ARE KIND OF MAKING THEIR WAY TOWARDS THE EXIT, SPOOKED BY SOME OF WHAT THEY'RE SEEING IN TERMS OF THE LACK OF PROFITABILITY IN THE SECTOR.

BUT IF THAT'S NOT A RUSH FOR THE EXITS AMONG THE INVESTOR CLASS WRIT LARGE THEN YOU'D SEE A MORE GRADUAL DEFLATING OF A BUBBLE THAN A MORE VIOLENT POPPING.

>> ANOTHER CONCERN FOR CONSUMERS IS ENERGY COSTS, AND THAT IS SOMETHING CLEARLY THE PRESIDENT IS FOCUSED ON RIGHT NOW AND SEEMINGLY SCAPEGOATING UKRAINE FOR DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE'S A WAR IN IRAN, THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ HAS BECOME A CHOKE POINT, AND WE'VE JUST SEEN, SPEAKING OF AI, DATA CENTERS CONSUME A LOT MORE ENERGY AS WELL.

BUT AS IT RELATES TO DIESEL SPECIFICALLY AND THE PRESIDENT'S SURPRISING AND CONTROVERSIAL DIESEL DEAL WITH RUSSIA, HE'S SAYING THAT WILL WILL BRING RELIEF.

I KNOW ECONOMISTS SAY THAT THAT WOULD BE MARGINAL AT BEST.

SO DOES THE ECONOMIC BENEFIT JUST THE ADVANTAGE THIS WOULD GIVE MOSCOW?

>> WELL, THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION FOR ME BECAUSE IT KIND OF COMBINES ECONOMICS AND GEOPOLITICS.

ON THE ECONOMICS WHERE MY EXPERTISE IS I'M RIGHT WHERE MY BROTHER AND SISTER ECONOMISTS ARE.

THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO MOVE THE NEEDLE IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY THAT AMERICAN CONSUMERS WILL FEEL.

REMEMBER, WE LIKE TO SAY OVER HERE CARS RUN ON GAS, ECONOMIES RUN ON DIESEL.

SO MUCH OF WHAT WE CONSUME, 80%, 90% OF OUR FOOD, FOR EXAMPLE, AT SOME POINT IS IN A TRUCK THAT'S GOT DIESEL IN ITS TANK.

SO THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM FOR THE CONSUMER.

TAKES US BACK TO THE AFFORDABILITY CONCERNS THAT WE DISCUSSED EARLY ON IN THIS INTERVIEW.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS A VERY FIRM NO, THAT THE KIND OF ADVANTAGE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS GIVING HERE TO THE AGGRESSOR, TO RUSSIA, TO PUTIN, TO THAT AUTHORITARIAN REGIME IS JUST ANOTHER REMINDER OF HOW HE TENDS TO BE MUCH KINDER TO AMERICA'S ENEMIES THAN AMERICA'S FRIENDS.

I THINK THAT'S TERRIBLE FOREIGN POLICY.

BUT AT LEAST FROM AN AFFORDABILITY PERSPECTIVE, YOU KNOW, HE CONTINUES TO REALLY WHACK THE AMERICAN CONSUMER BY PROLONGING THE WAR IN IRAN.

>> AND NOW TWO WEEKS BEFORE THE ELECTION THE PRESIDENT ALSO ANNOUNCED $8 BILLION IN AID FOR FARMERS STRUGGLING WITH DIESEL COSTS.

THIS IS CLEARLY TOP OF MIND FOR HIM AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

JARED BERNSTEIN, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND EXPERTISE.

FORMER CHAIR OF THE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS.

THANKS FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> COULD DONALD TRUMP AND KIM JONG UN POSSIBLY MEET NEXT MONTH AT A SUMMIT IN CHINA?

THE U. S. PRESIDENT SEEMED TO DOWNPLAY THE PROSPECT OF THAT HAPPENING MONDAY BUT TOLD REPORTERS THAT HE AND THE NORTH KOREAN LEADER HAVE A, QUOTE, VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

IN THE 1990s NORTH KOREA WAS EVEN MORE SECRETIVE THAN IT IS TODAY, AND IN THE GRIP OF A DEVASTATING FAMINE.

ESTIMATES VARY, BUT STUDIES SUGGEST THAT MANY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED, A PERIOD TERMED THE ARDUOUS MARCH.

BUT THE WOMAN WHO TOOK THESE PHOTOGRAPHS YOU'RE LOOKING AT MANAGED TO REACH THE COUNTRY TO TRY TO HELP.

KATHI ZELLWEGER MADE DOZENS OF VISITS, TRYING TO ALLEVIATE DISASTER AND GET ORDINARY PEOPLE WHAT THEY NEEDED TO SURVIVE.

IT WAS A LONELY EFFORT BUT ONE THAT SAVED THOUSANDS OF LIVES.

NOW SHE'S TELLING HER STORY IN A NEW BOOK, "MISS KATHI:SAVING LIVES IN NORTH KOREA. "

SHE JOINS US ALONGSIDE HER CO-AUTHOR FORMER CNN CORRESPONDENT MIKE CHINOY.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, KATHI, FOR WRITING IT, MIKE FOR JOINING US, AND YOUR HELP HERE GIVEN YOUR YEARS OF COVERAGE.

AND I WANT TO START WITH YOU, MIKE.

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT IS ONCE AGAIN TOUTING HIS CLOSE RELATIONSHIP, AS YOU HEARD, WITH KIM JONG UN.

A MEETING NEXT MONTH REMAINS UNCERTAIN.

BUT WOULD ANOTHER SUMMIT AT THIS POINT ACTUALLY ACHIEVE ANYTHING?

>> WELL, FOR KIM JONG UN IT MIGHT ACHIEVE SOMETHING BECAUSE HE'S JUST HOSTED VLADIMIR PUTIN AND XI JINPING, SO TO HAVE DONALD TRUMP COME TO PYONGYANG, COME TO HIS TURF WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE A FEATHER IN HIS CAP AND WOULD HELP HIM DOMESTICALLY.

BUT I THINK THE CHANCES ARE QUITE UNLIKELY AT THIS POINT, AND I THINK KIM WOULD DRIVE A VERY HARD BARGAIN.

HE'D BE ASKING FOR RECOGNITION OF NORTH KOREA AS A NUCLEAR STATE AND HE'D BE LOOKING FOR WAYS TO WEAKEN THE U. S.

-SOUTH KOREA ALLIANCE, BOTH OF WHICH I THINK ARE PROBLEMATIC FROM THE AMERICAN POINT OF VIEW.

SO IT'S VERY IFFY.

>> AND SINCE THE LAST SUMMIT HIS NUCLEAR ARSENAL HAS ONLY GROWN STRONGER AS HAVE HIS TIES WITH RUSSIA.

WHAT IS THE STATE, MIKE, CURRENTLY OF THE U. S. RELATIONSHIP WITH NORTH KOREA?

>> THERE ISN'T MUCH OF A RELATIONSHIP.

AFTER THE FAILURE OF THE HANOI SUMMIT THAT KIM JONG UN HAD WITH DONALD TRUMP WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM WALKED OUT OF THAT SUMMIT JUST AS THE NORTH KOREANS WERE SIGNALING SOME FLEXIBILITY, KIM REALLY CHANGED NORTH KOREA'S WHOLE STRATEGIC POSTURE WHICH HAD BEEN PREDICATED ON TRYING TO SECURE THE VIABILITY AND SURVIVE OF HIS REGIME THROUGH A RAPPROCHEMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES.

INSTEAD HE REALLY THREW IN HIS LOT WITH THE RUSSIANS AND THE CHINESE AND WROTE OFF THE AMERICANS.

AND I THINK THAT'S STILL VERY MUCH THE POSITION THAT HE TAKES.

>> KATHI, LET'S TURN TO YOUR BOOK.

YOU TAKE US BEYOND AND BEHIND THE MILITARY PARADES TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LIVING THERE.

TAKE US BACK TO YOUR FIRST VISITS DURING THE FAMINE.

WHAT DID YOU SEE THAT THE OUTSIDE WORLD COULD NOT?

>> WELL, IT WAS VERY HARD TO SEE ALL THE STARVING CHILDREN IN INSTITUTIONS OR SOMETIMES EVEN IN FAMILIES.

IT WAS A REALLY, REALLY TOUGH TIME.

AND ALSO HOSPITALS WERE BADLY EQUIPPED, HAD LITTLE OR NO MEDICINE, OFTEN NO RUNNING WATER, ONLY A COUPLE HOURS OF ELECTRICITY.

IT WAS TERRIBLE.

BUT LET'S HOPE THAT THIS --I DO THINK THE SITUATION HAS NOW IMPROVED A BIT.

MORE PROBABLY IN PYONGYANG THAN IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

>> WITH, THIS AT THE TIME ESPECIALLY WAS A HERMETICALLY SEALED COUNTRY FOR I WOULD IMAGINE EVERYONE YOU ENGAGED WITH.

YOU MAY HAVE BEEN THE FIRST WESTERNER THAT THEY HAD EVER SEEN.

JUST TALK ABOUT HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO BREAK THROUGH ANY PERCEPTIONS THAT THEY HAD ABOUT YOU AND TO GAIN ULTIMATELY THEIR TRUST.

>> I THINK IT ALSO HAD TO DO THAT I MADE MANY REPEAT VISITS, AND WITH THAT I COULD GRADUALLY BUILD UP TRUST BECAUSE TO BUILD UP TRUST AND RELATIONSHIPS IS A TIME-CONSUMING PROJECT.

BECAUSE SOMETIMES I WOULD GO THERE FIVE TIMES A YEAR, MEET MORE OR LESS THE SAME PEOPLE, THAT REALLY HELPED.

AND GRADUALLY WITH A LOT OF NEGOTIATIONS WE MANAGED OR I MANAGED TO GO BACK TO THE AREAS WHICH WE ASOUPED WERE MUCH WORSE OFF.

AND THAT WAS MAINLY THE EAST COAST BECAUSE IT IS VERY, VERY MOUNTAINOUS THERE.

THAT MEANS WILL THE ARABLE LAND.

SO PEOPLE HAD LESS FOOD TO EAT AND WERE SUFFERING MORE.

AND WE GRADUALLY COULD EXTEND THE AID TO THE EAST COAST.

AND ONE STORY I REMEMBER I WAS THERE WITH THE CHARACTER DELEGATION AND THERE WERE ALWAYS PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES INCLUDING AN AMERICAN AND I INTRODUCED THIS CHAP TO MY NORTH KOREAN COUNTERPART AND THE GUY LOOKED VERY AMAZED, SHOOK HIS HAND --THEY SHOOK HANDS, AND THEN THE NORTH KOREAN FELLOW SAID, NEVER IN MY LIFE DID I THINK I WOULD SHAKE HANDS WITH AN AMERICAN.

IT WAS VERY MOVING, I CAN TELL YOU.

>> WOW.

I BET IT WAS.

YOU FIRST WENT TO NORTH KOREA IN 1995.

WE WERE JUST LOOKING AT IMAGES OF THESE VERY THIN UNDER, MALNOURISHED CHILDREN.

I WANT TO READ AN EXCERPT FROM THIS BOOK.

YOU DESCRIBE A HOSPITAL AS SUCH.

THERE WAS NO SOAP OR DISINFECTANT.

THERE WERE NO DRUGS.

ALTHOUGH THE PLACE WAS SURPRISINGLY CLEAN THE IV DRIPS WERE ATTACHED TO UNSTERILIZED FANTA OR MINERAL WATER BOTTLES.

THE HOSPITAL DIRECTOR, HIS FACE LINED WITH FATIGUE, TOLD ME SEVERAL CHILDREN WERE DYING EVERY MONTH AND PLEADED FOR HELP.

I WAS STRUCK BY HOW QUIET IT WAS.

I THINK ABOUT ORPHANAGES IN THE '90s IN ROMANIA AND EVEN RUSSIA WHERE WE WOULD HEAR THE SAME DESCRIPTION OF JUST HOW QUIET THESE CHILDREN WERE WHEN YOU EXPECT TO HEAR CRYING AND ALL OF THE SOUNDS OF YOUNG HEALTHY CHILDREN.

THAT WASN'T THE CASE HERE.

HOW DID THE EXPERIENCE CHANGE YOU PERSONAL, KATHI?

>> WELL, IT WAS HEARTBREAKING TO SEE THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, SEEING THE MISERY ALSO ENCOURAGED ME TO GO ON AND TO HELP AS GOOD AS I COULD.

OF COURSE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF OUR INTERNATIONAL CARR ITUS NETWORK.

AND THAT HELPED TO BRING IN HUGE SHIPTS OF FOOD, MOST LY RICE BUT ALSO LATER ON OTHER FOOD ITEMS.

WE MOVED TO REHABILITATING COUNTY HOSPITALS AND ALSO HELPED THE CHILDREN IN INSTITUTIONS WITH DAILY NECESSITIES.

>> THERE WE'RE LOOKING AT IMAGES AND VIDEO OF YOU FROM 1997 FROM PYONGYANG.

MIKE, YOU COVERED NORTH KOREA FOR YEARS.

I'M CURIOUS, WHAT DID KATHY'S EXPERIENCE AND YOUR EXPERIENCE TOGETHER ON THIS PROJECT REVEAL TO YOU ABOUT NORTH KOREA THAT YOU PERHAPS WEREN'T ABLE TO GLEAN FROM YOUR YEARS AS A CORRESPONDENT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT AS A JOURNALIST YOU'RE MUCH MORE LIMITED AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S SO REMARKABLE ABOUT KATHI IS THAT SHE HAD ACCESS THAT NOT ONLY ALMOST NO AID WORKER HAD BUT CERTAINLY NO JOURNALIST EVER HAD.

AND I THINK WHAT MAKES OUR BOOK, "MISS KATHI," SO DIFFERENT IS MOST OF THE LITERATURE ABOUT NORTH KOREA IS EITHER ABOUT THE DIPLOMACY SURROUNDING THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND THE MISSILE PROGRAM OR IT'S ACCOUNTS OF DEFECTORS BUT WHAT YOU DON'T GET IS A SENSE OF WHAT THE ORDINARY LIFE OF NORTH KOREANS IS LIKE.

AND KATHI VISITING EVERY SINGLE PROVINCE, GOING PLACES THAT WERE OFF LIMITS TO ALMOST EVERYBODY ELSE, MEETING FAMILIES, INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE THAT VISITORS LIKE MYSELF ON THE MANY TRIPS I MADE TO CNN NEVER HAD ACCESS TO, PAINTS A MUCH RICHER MORE NUANCED PORTRAIT OF A MUCH MORE COMPLEX AND MULTIDIMENSIONAL SOCIETY THAN NORTH KOREA IS OFTEN PORTRAYED IN THE MEDIA.

>> KATHI, HOW DO YOU HOLD THE REGIME --THERE WE SEE VIDEO AND FOOTAGE OF YOU AT THE SAME TIME, MIKE, IN 1997 REPORTING FROM PYONGYANG.

KATHI, HOW DO YOU HOLD A REGIME ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ABUSES COMMITTED WITHOUT DEEPENING NORTH KOREANS' ISOLATION AS A PEOPLE?

>> IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER.

AND AT THE TIME THE FAMINE WAS --I MEAN CERTAINLY THE OFFICIALS WERE ALSO VERY, VERY CONCERNED WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THEIR COUNTRY.

AND THEY WERE VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE AID PROVIDED.

BUT AT THE BEGINNING IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE DONORS THAT THERE WAS A CRISIS AND THAT AID WAS DEFINITELY NEEDED.

SO INITIALLY PERHAPS IT WAS A SLOW START BUT THEN WHEN I COULD TAKE IN THE CAMERA AND SHOW THE PICTURE WITH INTERVIEWS WITH CNN AND OTHER NEWS AGENCIES THAT HELPED TO SHOW THE REALITY.

>> AND MIKE, WHILE YOU WERE WORKING ON THIS PROJECT, PERHAPS REFLECTING BACK ON YOUR WORK, I MEAN, IT IS SORT OF A FINE LINE TO BALANCE OF NOT WANTING TO BE USED AS THE REGIME'S PROPAGANDA BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE ACCESS THAT SOMEONE LIKE KATHI HAS, IS THIS A LESSON FOR PERHAPS MORE CORRESPONDENTS, ESPECIALLY TRYING TO REPORT FROM AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRIES, TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH PEOPLE LIKE KATHI TO HAVE A BETTER SENSE OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING INSIDE THE COUNTRY AND ABLE TO CHANGE THAT OR MAKE A CHANGE?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT IN COVERING A COUNTRY LIKE NORTH KOREA TO TRY AND KEEP IN MIND THAT 99% OF THE PEOPLE IN NORTH KOREA ARE NOT ENGAGED IN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS, ARE NOT TRYING TO ESCAPE BUT ARE SIMPLY ORDINARY PEOPLE TRYING TO SURVIVE.

THESE WERE THE KINDS OF PEOPLE TO WHOM KATHI HAD ACCESS THAT I AS A JOURNALIST HAD VERY LIMITED ACCESS.

AND SO I THINK IN BALANCING OUT THE KIND OF HARD POLITICAL NEWS IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A LIVING, BREATHING SOCIETY FULL OF ORDINARY PEOPLE STRUGGLING TO SURVIVE.

AND TO THE EXTENT THAT ONE CAN CAPTURE THAT YOU PAINT A MUCH RICHER PICTURE OF THE SOCIETY.

IN OUR BOOK "MISS KATHI" THAT'S WHAT WE TRIED TO DO, TO GIVE A SENSE OF NORTH KOREA IN A WAY THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVEN'T REALLY PORTRAYED IT.

>> IF YOU HAVE ANY PERHAPS INSIGHT INTO HOW NORTH KOREANS ARE REACTING TO THE PRESIDENT'S, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S APPROACH TO KIM JONG UN, CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT HOW CLOSE THEY ARE, THEIR WARM RELATIONSHIP, THE LOVE LETTERS THAT THEY EXCHANGED, HOW IS THAT BEING FILTERED THROUGH TO LOCALS?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THE MAJORITY, THE BIG MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE DOES NOT KNOW ALL THIS BECAUSE THEIR LIFE IS THREE BIG WORRIES.

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH TO EAT?

IS NOBODY ILL?

ARE THE CHILDREN GOING TO SCHOOL?

AND BOTH PARENTS HAVE TO WORK VERY HARD.

THAT LEAVES VERY LITTLE ROOM TO THINK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE THAN MAKING LIFE PERHAPS A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

>> AND I WOULD SIMPLY ADD THAT I THINK KIM JONG UN IS NOT A SENTIMENTAL PERSON.

PRESIDENT TRUMP MAY TALK ABOUT WHAT A WONDERFUL FRIENDSHIP HE HAD, BUT KIM JONG UN IS A VERY HARDHEADED, TOUGH-MINDED LEADER WHO'S GOT CLEAR IDEAS OF WHAT HIS NATIONAL INTEREST IS.

IF THAT INVOLVES MAKING NICE WITH DONALD TRUMP HE'LL DO IT.

BUT THERE'S CERTAINLY NO SENTIMENT ON KIM JONG UN'S PART, I DON'T THINK.

>> KATHI, FINAL QUESTION TO YOU.

THOSE CHILDREN, THOSE BABIES THAT YOU WERE VISITING THERE AND MET IN THE MID TO LATE '90s WOULD NOW BE IF THEY'RE STILL ALIVE APPROACHING 30 YEARS OLD HE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU STAY IN TOUCH WITH ANYBODY.

BUT WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES TODAY AND FOR THE FUTURE?

>> YOU KNOW, OVER THE MANY YEARS I HAVE BEEN GOING IN AND OUT OF NORTH KOREA, AND I LIVED THERE FOR FIVE YEARS, I ALSO SAW CHANGES IN THE SOCIETY AND ESPECIALLY AMONG PEOPLE BORN DURING THE FAMINE OR AFTER.

I FELT THEIR MINDSETS WERE CHANGING BECAUSE THEY HAD NO LONGER ACCESS, OR DID NO LONGER GET GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS.

SO VERY SOON THEY HAD TO THINK OF HOW CAN I MAKE ENDS MEET.

AND THAT CHANGED THEIR WAY OF THINKING.

SO I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT IF THAT GOES ON AND KIM JONG UN REALLY WANTS TO DEVELOP THE COUNTRYSIDE TOO WITH THIS NEW POLICY OF 20 BY 10 THAT THINGS MAY GET BETTER NOT ONLY IN PYONGYANG BUT ALSO IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

AND I JUST -- PERSONALLY I JUST WISH THE NORTH KOREAN PEOPLE A BETTER LIFE.

>> YEAH.

I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE WITH THAT.

AND A GOOD WAY TO END THE SHOW.

A BIT OF OPTIMISM HERE.

KATHI ZELLWEGER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

MIKE CHINOY AS WELL.

CO-AUTHORS OF "MISS KATHI: SAVING LIVES IN NORTH KOREA. "

> >> NOW, AS EXPERTS RAISE CONCERNS ABOUT THE AI BUBBLE, THEY'RE ALSO SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT HOW FAST THE TECHNOLOGY IS ADVANCING.

THE U. S. AND CHINA ARE RACING TO LEAD THE WORLD IN AI AND THERE'S LITTLE SIGN THAT THAT'S SLOWING DOWN.

OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THAT INSTEAD OF COMPETING THE TWO SUPERPOWERS SHOULD BE WORKING TOGETHER TO PUT GUARDRAILS ON THE TECHNOLOGY.

AI SCIENTIST AND FORMER PRESIDENT OF GOOGLE CHINA KAI-FU LEE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW THE TECHNOLOGY COULD TRANSFORM BUSINESSES AND RESHAPE FUTURE EMPLOYMENT FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

AND DR.

ARE KAI-FU LEE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> IN YOUR VERY TIMELY BOOK "AI NATIVE" YOU HAVE A SENTENCE I'M GOING TO READ TO YOU WHICH IS "THIS IS A TRANSFORMATION FAR MORE PROFOUND THAN THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION AND ITS IMPACT IS BEING FELT NOT IN DECADES BUT IN QUARTERS. "

WHAT HAS SURPRISED YOU THE MOST IN THE PAST SIX MONTHS?

>> IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS THE IMPROVEMENT OF AI ACTUALLY IMPROVED FASTER THAN BEFORE, NOT SLOWER.

USUALLY AS TECHNOLOGIES IMPROVE THEY REACH SOME KIND OF AN ASIM TOET.

BUT AI IS IMPROVING FASTER FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

ONE IS AI IS LEARNING TO CODE MUCH BETTER THAN PEOPLE.

AND THAT ACCELERATES THE SPEED OF SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT.

ANY SOFTWARE CAN BE DEVELOPED VERY CHEAPLY.

NO LONGER DO YOU NEED EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE ENGINEERS.

SECONDLY, AI IS LEARNING TO IMPROVE ITSELF.

THIS IS CALLED RECURSIVE SELF-IMPROVEMENT.

AND THAT REMOVES THE HUMAN IN THE LOOP.

YOU NO LONGER NEED 2,000 SCIENTISTS TRYING DIFFERENT IDEAS AND AI IMPROVES ITSELF.

NOW, THE 2,000 SCIENTISTS CAN STILL, YOU KNOW, PUT ICING ON THE CAKE, BUT AI IS NOW LEARNING TO IMPROVE ITSELF.

>> LET ME DRILL DOWN ON WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS ITS ABILITY TO REMOVE HUMANS FROM THE LOOP.

WHY IS THAT A GOOD THING?

>> WELL, FOR THE SPEED OF INCREASING INTELLIGENCE IT'S A GOOD THING.

FOR MANY THINGS IN THE COMPANY, IN MY COMPANY, I REMOVED ME AS THE CEO IN THE LOOP.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING.

BECAUSE AI CANNOT BE ACCOUNTABLE.

AND AS A CEO, AS A MANAGER YOU WILL NEED A PERSON TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY.

SO IN THAT SENSE AI CANNOT BE ACCOUNTABLE.

>> BUT ISN'T THAT THE PROBLEM WE'RE FACING, WHICH IS THESE AUTONOMOUS AGENTS SUDDENLY ACTING UNACCOUNTABLY?

>> THAT'S WHY THOSE CASES NEED BETTER GUARDRAILS AND ALSO IN MANY CASES THEY SHOULD NOT BE --THEY SHOULD HAVE A HUMAN IN THE LOOP.

WHEN I TALKED EARLIER ABOUT AI SELF- IMPROVEMENT, THAT'S PURELY BASED ON THE METRIC OF ITS INTELLIGENCE IS INCREASING WITHOUT AS MUCH HUMAN INVOLVEMENT AND IT'S MAKING ITSELF SMARTER.

AND THAT I THINK IS NOT A DIFFERENCE FROM MAKING DECISIONS THAT COULD LOSE TONS OF MONEY OR BREAK A LAW.

>> YOUR BOOK IS A REALLY USEFUL GUIDE FOR HOW SHOULD I APPLY AI TO MY BUSINESS, TO MY LIFE, TO MY CORPORATION .

TELL ME, WHAT ARE COMPANIES GETTING WRONG ABOUT HOW THEY APPLY AI TO THEIR BUSINESS?

>> MOST CEOs STILL THINK ABOUT AI AS A TECHNOLOGY OR A SOFTWARE AND THEY DELEGATE TO THE CIO TO IMPLEMENT A MODEL OR A CAPABILITY OR TO IMPLEMENT AGENTS FOR DIFFERENT DEMTS SUCH AS CUSTOMER SERVICE OR LEGAL OR FINANCE.

NOW, THESE AGENTS ARE USEFUL IN AND OF THEMSELVES, BUT THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN SOME COST REDUCTION.

BUT I THINK IF WE THINK ABOUT AI GETTING SO MUCH SMARTER IT'S LIKE HAVING AN IQ300 PERSON ENTER YOUR COMPANY AND HAVING THAT PERSON BE A CUSTOMER SERVICE REP IS REALLY UNDERUTILIZING THE PERSON'S CAPABILITY.

SO IN MY BOOK "AI NATIVE" I TALK ABOUT WHEN WE HAVE AN AI THIS SMART IT SHOULD DO THE MOST MISSION-CRITICAL TASKS IN THE COMPANY SUCH AS INCREASING REVENUE, INCREASING PROFITABILITY, INCREASING GROWTH, INNOVATING NEW PRODUCTS OR HELPING THE CEO MANAGE THE COMPANY BETTER.

SO THESE ARE THE KINDS OF PRODUCTS THAT MY COMPANY ZERO ONE DOT AI DEVELOPS AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT TO DO AI TRANSFORMATION SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT HOW THEY CAN USE AI FOR THESE HIGH-VALUE TASKS IN ADDITION TO USING IT FOR SMALL CONVENIENCE OR SMALL COST SAVINGS.

>> WELL, YOU'RE A CEO.

YOU'VE GOT YOUR OWN COMPANY.

TELL ME WHAT YOU DO AND GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE EVEN TODAY, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO HAVE AI AS A CEO OF YOUR BUSINESS CHANGE THINGS?

>> RIGHT.

I'M STILL THE CEO.

I MAKE ALL THE DECISIONS.

BUT I RELY ON AI TO GATHER ALL THE INFORMATION, PROVIDE ME WITH INPUT, INSIGHT AND RECOMMENDATIONS.

AND THAT BECOMES POSSIBLE BECAUSE AI CAN READ ALL THE DATA IN MY COMPANY, ALL OF THE SALES REPORTS, ALL OF THE CRM, ERP.

IT CAN READ ALL THE DATA BASES.

IT CAN KNOW EVERYBODY'S WORK PROGRESS REPORT, EVERYBODY'S REVIEWS AND OKRs AND KPIs.

AND ALSO IT CAN SIT IN IN ALL THE MEETINGS LIKE VIDEO CONFERENCES ARE BEING RECORDED, SO THAT'S BEING SAVED.

AND USUALLY THAT'S JUST ARCHIVED BUT NOW WE CAN HAVE AI LISTEN TO ALL OF IT.

CUSTOMER CALLS.

IT'S VERY CUSTOMARY TO RECORD THE CALL WITH A CUSTOMER FOR THE PURPOSE OF SERVING CUSTOMERS BETTER.

AND THOSE LOGS CAN BE SAVED.

SO NOW IF YOU THINK ABOUT AN AI ACTING AS MY CHIEF OF STAFF THAT HAS ACCESS TO ALL OF THIS DATA IT'S A GOD'S EYE VIEW TO ALL THE DATA IN THE COMPANY.

I CAN THEN ASK QUESTIONS LIKE OF ALL THE MEETINGS IN MY COMPANY, NOT JUST THE ONES I WAS AT BUT ALL OF THEM, WHAT ARE THE THREE BIGGEST DEBATES THAT ARE HAD THAT I NEED TO KNOW ABOUT OR WHICH ONE OF MY TOP TWO STRATEGIC INITIATIVES ARE POTENTIALLY BEING BLOCKED AND WHAT IS BLOCKING IT AND HOW DO I UNBLOCK IT?

OR WHO ARE ARE THE BEST AI PROGRAMMERS IN MY COMPANY, WHICH ONES ARE THE BEST LEADERS AMONG THEM.

THEN I WANT TO ELEVATE THEM TO MORE IMPORTANT POSITIONS TO MANAGE THESE AI WORKERS.

AND FINALLY I CAN ASK HOW CAN I BE A BETTER CEO, HOW SHOULD I RUN MEETINGS BETTER, AND BASED ON THE COMPANY DISASTER LAST WEEK HOW SHOULD WE REVISE OUR ARE PROCESS TO AVOID A RECURRENCE?

>> AND WHAT CAN IT NOT DO FOR YOU?

>> IT CANNOT MAKE DECISIONS FOR ME.

IT IN FACT CAN MAKE PRETTY GOOD DECISIONS BUT WE CAN'T LET IT MAKE DECISIONS BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE ACCOUNTABLE.

IT WOULD BE --THERE WOULD BE NO ONE --IT'S UNABLE TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY.

IT HAS NO FEELINGS.

IT'S NOT FEARFUL OF FAILURE.

IT'S NOT BEING ENTICED BY PASSION AND SUCCESS.

SO THAT DECISION MAKING, THAT BELIEF AND VISION AND FORESIGHT STILL BELONG TO THE HUMAN.

ALSO, AI CAN ONLY MAKE PREDICTIONS ON THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED, SIMILAR THINGS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

IT CANNOT INVENT A NEW THING.

BASED ON THE HISTORY OF ALL THE MOBILE PHONES 20 YEARS AGO IT COULD NOT COME UP WITH AN iPHONE.

BECAUSE AN iPHONE WAS CREATED BECAUSE OF STEVE JOBS' VISION, FORESIGHT AND JUST BELIEF THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT PRODUCT AND THAT NO ONE WILL TELL HIM I WANT AN iPHONE BUT ONCE HE BUILDS ONE EVERYONE WANTS ONE.

SO THAT'S THE KIND OF CASE WHERE AI CANNOT PREDICT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY DATA TO SUGGEST THAT AN iPHONE AS IT WAS DESIGNED WOULD BE A GOOD PRODUCT.

>> YOU HAVE A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.

YOU WERE BORN IN TAIWAN, RIGHT?

EDUCATED IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU SPENT YEARS WITH AMERICAN TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES IN CHINA.

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AI'S DEVELOPMENT NOW, ALL THE PEOPLE WE TALK ABOUT ARE KIND OF WORRIED.

THEY SAY WE NEED GUARDRAILS.

PEOPLE SAYING MAYBE WE SHOULD HIT THE PAUSE BUTTON.

AND THEN THEY SAY BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT BECAUSE THEN CHINA WILL BEAT US.

GIVE ME YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT.

>> I THINK CHINA IS DOING A GREAT JOB AS THE ANDROID OF THE AI ECOSYSTEM.

U. S. IS THE iPHONE EQUIVALENT.

SO THE SAME WAY THAT iPHONE LED THE WAY, ANDROID FOLLOWED CLOSELY, iPHONE MADE THE MONEY AND ANDROID HAD MORE MARKET SHARE, THAT'S THE PATH WE'RE ON.

SO I THINK -- >> DOES THAT MEAN THE CHINESE ONE WILL BE OPEN, WHICH IS KIND OF WHAT ANDROID IS, A BIT MORE OF AN OPEN SOURCE?

>> YES.

MOST CHINESE MODELS ARE OPEN SOURCE.

AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE BEING ADOPTED WIDELY.

OPEN SOURCE HAS THE ADVANTAGE OF BEING CHEAPER AND SOMETIMES EVEN FREE IF YOU ALREADY HAVE THE HARDWARE.

AND ALSO IT HAS THE ADVANTAGE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEND YOUR DATA TO THE CLOUD BECAUSE YOU CAN RUN IT ON YOUR SERVER OR THE PC.

SO THE CHINESE COMPANIES ARE OBVIOUSLY INTERESTED IN ADVANCING THEIR MODELS.

BUT I THINK THE CHINESE COMPANIES ARE VERY WILLING TO SIT DOWN AND DISCUSS WITH THE AMERICAN COMPANIES WHETHER A DUAL SLOWDOWN IS NEEDED AND CAN WE DO IT ON EQUAL TERMS WITH MUTUAL RESPECT.

I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE AMERICAN EXPERTS SUGGEST THAT AMERICA AND ITS ALLIES SHOULD COME UP WITH THE RULES AND TELL CHINA TO FOLLOW.

I THINK FRANKLY THAT IS VERY ARROGANT AND WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED WELL.

I THINK U. S. AND CHINA ARE THE TWO LEADERS, TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE TO PROVIDE AI SAFETY THE TWO LEADERS MUST SIT DOWN ON EQUAL TERMS.

JUST LIKE IF PHONES HAVE SOME DANGER AND ROIFD AND iPHONE ARE THE TWO COMPANIES THAT HAVE TO --TWO PRODUCTS, APPLE AND GOOGLE HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND RESOLVE IT.

IT CAN'T BE THE CASE THAT GOOGLE FINDS ALL OF ITS PARTNERS, MAKES THE RULES AND TELL APPLE TO FOLLOW SUIT AND VICE VERSA.

>> WELL, THIS SEEMS VERY INTERESTING, ALMOST NEWSY.

YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU THINK THAT THE CHINESE ARE READY TO SIT DOWN AND FIGURE THIS OUT.

BUT I COULDN'T THEY FROM YOUR ANSWER WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT THING LIKE WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP MEETS XI AND HAVING A GOVERNMENT RULES OF THE ROAD, ARMS CONTROL NEGOTIATION, OR WHETHER IT SHOULD BE AS YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING CHINESE COMPANIES SITTING DOWN WITH AMERICAN COMPANIES AND DOING IT WITHOUT GOVERNMENT.

>> I THINK BOTH ARE VIABLE AND I THINK AMERICANS LEADERS TALK ABOUT BOTH.

I THINK SOME ADVOCATES A PRIVATE SECTOR SELF-RESTRAINT, OTHERS BELIEF REGULATIONS ARE NEEDED.

AND I THINK THIS DANGER IS POTENTIALLY SERIOUS AND NOT FAR FROM IMMINENT THAT BOTH PATHS SHOULD BE PURSUED.

I THINK THE CHINESE COMPANIES ARE MORE COMMERCIAL.

THEY ARE FARTHER AWAY FROM REACHING THIS A. G. I. BUT I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY THEY WOULDN'T PARTICIPATE.

I THINK ANY ASSUMPTION THAT CHINESE COMPANIES ARE INHERENTLY OUT TO BUILD SOMETHING BAD OR REFUSE TO PARTICIPATE IS A VERY NAIVE DEMONIZATION OF CHINESE COMPANIES.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT XI, LOOK AT THEIR SPEECHES, PRESIDENT XI HAS MENTIONED MANY, MANY, MANY MORE TIMES AI SAFETY.

SO I ALSO THINK CHINA WOULD BE A WILLING PARTICIPANT.

BUT AGAIN, IT HAS TO BE AT EQUAL LEVELS.

>> ONE OF THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES IS THERE'S A SURVEY THAT SAYS 84% OF THE PEOPLE IN CHINA ARE EXCITED ABOUT AI.

AND I THINK ONLY 38% IN AMERICA ARE.

YOU'VE LIVED IN BOTH PLACES.

WHY THAT DIVIDE?

>> I DON'T KNOW AS MUCH -- I THINK IN THE U. S. THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES THAT ARE BROUGHT IN THE OPEN.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VOCAL PEOPLE WHO TALK ABOUT DANGERS OF AI.

AND THE MEDIA I THINK SOMETIMES CORRECTLY REPORTS ISSUES BUT SOMETIMES SENSATIONALIZES.

SO THAT LEADS TO I THINK THE RELATIVELY NEGATIVE VIEW.

AND I THINK THE VIEW ABOUT AI TAKING JOBS AWAY IS MORE PREVALENT IN THE U. S. THAT'S WHY AT VARIOUS GRADUATION COMMENCEMENTS THE STUDENTS DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR THE SPEAKER TALK ABOUT AI.

SO THAT'S MY GUESS ABOUT THE U. S. NOW, IN CHINA IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT HAS BROUGHT THE SUCCESS TO CHINA IT'S ABOUT LEARNING TO DO MANUFACTURING, LEARNING TO ACTUALLY ADOPT MOBILE PHONES AHEAD OF U. S. IN WIDE USAGE, LEARNING TO USE THE INTERNET, DEVELOPING CHINA'S OWN INTERNET WEBSITES AND BEING THE FIRST TO USE MOBILE DEVICES AND HAVING A LOT OF CONVENIENCES INCLUDING VERY FAST FOOD DELIVERY, VERY GOOD CAR RIDE SERVICES, VERY GOOD E-COMMERCE, ET CETERA.

SO I THINK THE PEOPLE VIEWS ARE VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES.

SO A TYPICAL CHINESE 40 OLDER WOULD LOOK BACK ON THE LAST 20 YEARS AND ALL THE MIRACULOUS CONVENIENCES, IMPROVEMENTS AND FINANCIAL BENEFITS FROM TECHNOLOGY.

SO IT'S NATURALLY FOR THEM TO FEEL MORE OPTIMISTIC.

NOW, AS WE SEE MORE ISSUES EMERGE IF THEY EMERGE, OBVIOUSLY THAT NUMBER WILL COME DOWN.

>> LET ME END WITH A PERSONAL QUESTION.

YOU'VE HAD A BATTLE WITH CANCER.

THAT RAISES REALLY TWO QUESTIONS FOR ME.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THAT WE'VE BEEN MISALLOCATING ALL OF OUR CPUs AND PROCESSING AND IQ POINTS AND ENERGY AND BUZZ TO THINGS LIKE CHATBOTS AND PERSONAL AGENTS AS OPPOSED TO DOING BIG THINGS LIKE CURING CANCER?

AND SECONDLY, SINCE IT'S GOING TO DISRUPT WHAT THE NATURE OF WORK IS, WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR CANCER ABOUT WHAT GIVES MEANING TO LIFE?

>> CERTAINLY.

ON THE FIRST QUESTION I DO THINK AI FOR SCIENCE, IN PARTICULAR AI FOR DRUG DISCOVERY IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AREA.

I THINK PEMIS HASABAS HAS WON A NOBEL PRIZE AND I'M VERY EXCITED TO SEE HIM DEDICATING HIS CAREER TO TRACKING THIS.

MY OTHER HAT IS THE CEO OF SANOVATION VENTURES.

.

WE'VE ALSO MADE NUMEROUS INVESTMENTS IN AI FOR DRUG DISCOVERY.

SO I DO THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE RENEWED FOCUS ON THAT.

I THINK WE'RE THE AWAY VERY CRITICAL JUNCTURE WHERE OUR LONGEVITY CAN INCREASE, NOT JUST LIVING LONGER BUT LONGER AND HEALTHIER, AND AI IS A GREAT WAY TO DISCOVER DRUGS AND ALSO MAKE AI MAKE SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGHS THAT CAN HELP WITH OUR HEALTH AND THE WELL- BEING OF THE WORLD.

ON THE SECOND QUESTION WHILE THERE'S STILL SOME DEBATE BUT I THINK MOST PEOPLE RECOGNIZE AI WILL REMOVE SOME JOBS FROM THE WORLD.

AND WHAT I'VE BEEN WORRIED SINCE 2017 WHEN I STARTED WRITING "AI SUPERPOWERS" IS THAT WHEN AI STARTS DOING MORE AND MORE COGNITIVE TASKS AND NUMBER OF JOBS IN VARIOUS CATEGORIES DECLINE THAT'S NOT ONLY GOING TO BE A ISSUE WITH PEOPLE'S INCOME BUT BECAUSE SO MANY OF US BELIEVE THAT OUR WORK IS THE ESSENCE AND MEANING OF OUR LIFE AND WHY WE EXIST, SO I THINK THE SOCIETY HAS TO MAKE CHANGES AND CONCESSIONS ON A LOT OF OUR VALUES.

FIRST I THINK WE DO NEED TO FIND JOBS THAT ARE VERY NUMEROUS FOR PEOPLE TO TAKE.

BUT MANY OF THEM MAY NOT HAVE HUGE ECONOMIC VALUE.

THEY MIGHT BE SERVICE JOBS.

THEY MIGHT BE VOLUNTEER JOBS.

THEY MIGHT BE HOME SCHOOLING.

THEY MIGHT BE GOING TO FOSTER HOMES AND ELDERLY HOMES.

THESE I THINK JOBS CREATE SOCIETAL VALUE.

THEY BRING WARMTH AND CONNECTIVITY TO PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S CLEARLY IMPORTANT IN AN AGE WHERE AI IS MAKING THE WORLD 2X, 3X, 10X MORE MONEY AND WE ENTER THE AGE OF PLENT TOOUD WHEN THERE'S ENOUGH MONEY FOR EVERYONE ON EARTH IF THEY COULD BE DISTRIBUTED.

BUT IF PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT FEELING THEY'RE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS WORLD, THAT'S A PROBLEM.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO SHIFT FROM ARE THE ONLY WAY TO CONTRIBUTE IS TO MAKE MONEY AND BECOME RICH.

EQUALLY RESPECTABLE SHOULD BE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

AND THERE SHOULD BE RESPECT FOR SERVICE JOBS, WHICH MIGHT BE THE MOST NUMEROUS JOBS THAT THE MOST PEOPLE WILL TAKE.

THEY CURRENTLY DON'T HAVE THE STATUS OF THE LAWYER, DOCTOR, SOFTWARE ENGINEERS, BUT IN THE FUTURE THERE WILL BE A LOT MORE OF TEACHERS AND NURSES AND VOLUNTEERS AND HOME SCHOOLING TEACHERS, ET CETERA.

SO THEY NEED TO HAVE RESPECT AND SOCIAL STATUS AND THEY NEED TO BE PAID NOT FOR THEIR ECONOMIC CONTRIBUTION BUT FOR THEIR SOCIETAL CONTRIBUTION.

>> DR.

KAI-FU LEE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> AND FINALLY, A PAUSE FOR THOUGHT FOR THIS CALIFORNIA LIBRARY ARE WHERE ONE VERY BIG BOOKWORM BEAT THE MORNING RUSH, ARRIVING BEFORE DOORS COULD EVEN OPEN.

AS YOU CAN SEE HERE, A BLACK BEAR WAS CAUGHT ON SECURITY CAMERAS WANDERING THROUGH THE MAMMOTH LAKES LIBRARY, HELPING ITSELF TO THE LIBRARY STAFF'S SNACKS FROM COOKIES TO HONEY.

WITH WINNIE THE POOH'S 100th ANNIVERSARY JUST PAST PERHAPS THE BEAR WAS LOOKING TO TAKE A LEAF OUT OF HIS BOOK, ENJOYING A LITTLE LIGHT READING AND OF COURSE A POT OF HONEY.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.

>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURING DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

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