Jensen Hang is out.

Pete Hex is not out.

Chuck Schumer could conceivably be out.

Howard Lutnik is mostly in, but could also be out.

And Scott Colom is very much in.

Tonight we'll discuss an event-filled week.

But mainly what we'll do is talk about the life and legacy of one of the greats of our profession, the former moderator of this program, Gwen Ifill, who left us 10 years ago this week.

Next.

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Thank you from the David M. Rubenstein studio at Weta in Washington, DC, editor-inchief of The Atlantic, and moderator Jeffrey Goldberg.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

It's hard to believe, but Gwen Ifill, an icon of American journalism, died 10 years ago, November 14th, 2016, at the much too young age of 61.

She was a friend, confidant, and adviser to me and to so many people across journalism.

We'll talk about Gwen tonight and her trailblazing role in journalism and what she might make of today's Washington Circus.

Before we do this, I'll talk about some of the news of the week with my guests.

John Dickerson, contributing writer at The Atlantic and co-host of the Political Gabfest podcast.

Jonathan Carl is the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News.

And Michelle Norris is a senior contributing editor for MS Now.

Um, thank you all for for being here, all of you friends and admirers of Gwen.

I appreciate you doing this on a on a sad occasion, but um I'm glad that we get to to to sit and talk for a little while.

Let's talk about the news.

We're not going to talk about the Friday the 13th ground stop because it's developing as we speak, but it doesn't seem like a great day to fly.

Well, the whole week has been one fragile reminder of the membrane between the day as we go through it and total collapse.

There's the FAA, the ground stop.

You had the Outlook, Microsoft Outlook was down for two days.

people didn't know what to do.

And Jensen Wong, the head of the most uh important AI company in the world, has an total and complete collapse, which means the center of the AI economy is fibrillating.

Well, thanks for the buzzkill.

Uh that was a reasonable reasonable summary of a week that probably should end.

I wanted to ask we'll get to Jensen Hang in a second.

And I wanted to ask uh um Michelle about Pete Hexath narrowly escapes impeachment, but this is something that is going to happen again, we think.

Yes, it will.

I mean, he uh did a lot of chest pounding afterwards and called it a stunt.

Um but he should be prepared for this to happen once the Democrats take over the House and the Senate.

He will definitely face impeachment again.

And you know, the interesting thing that we have to remember is we're a nation at war.

and the sect the head of the the department of defense I guess that he's calls it the department of war right is facing impeachment I mean normally when a country is at war you're trying to build a case for what you're doing you're trying to bring along the American public and this is happening you know the impeachment is in the news but the real news I think this week is what the people who are who are serving the conditions that they're serving under you know on these ships that they don't have food there's mold on these ships they're learning that they're not sure when they're going to come back.

Um, it's it's it's it's a larger problem than just impeachment.

But the the larger the larger sort of almost philosophical question is are you at war when the president says you're not at war?

I mean, you've been following this closely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've we've been through that many time.

But, but look, first of all, on the impeachment, uh, this was a deeply flawed eight articles of impeachment written by Thomas Massie, the one Republican that the Republicans in the House dislike more than any other.

Uh so it was easy for them to all vote against it.

But it was eight articles including impeaching him for violating the War Powers Act uh by by ex executing the war in Iran.

I mean that might be a a terrible thing and that would be something you might even want to try to impeach the president of the United States.

But he's doing it on behalf of the president, right?

Yes.

And and and the only thing it didn't include some of the obvious things such as uh all the firings of senior military officers.

So many of them women, people of color, and you know, fired for what?

None of that will.

The next one will the next.

So, so, so the members of the house were given a choice.

Vote up or down all these eight articles, some of which you might not like and didn't include your real and it's not just impeachment, it's hearings that will come in in the next year, which is did you or did you not tell the president about the number of missiles that were being burned through?

What was the actual evidence before this war was started about what Iran had?

Those are questions that are going to be uncomfortable.

And by the way, bases overseas right now.

And they voted to refer those articles of impeachment to the committee which will now bury it because it's a Republican held committee.

Well, guess what?

Next time it happens, the clock resets in January.

Um, Jensen Huang um surprised that the most indispensable CEO in tech turns out to be dispensable.

Well, we'll see if he's dispensable or not.

You look at the stock the board of his company believed that it had no choice.

But and the stock market thinks he was indispensable.

If you look at what's happened to the number, I mean what it reminds us is that human beings are at the center of these companies and those companies are being handed extraordinary power over the future of AI which will affect all of our lives.

And perhaps this should be a lesson that maybe you want to have not just a single point of failure when it comes to AI which will have all these ramifications.

So people who have asked either to slow AI down or have some sort of extra um uh process for managing the Gallup um that this might remind them that single people are are fallible.

This has become a mess for the White House, not only for the commerce secretary but for the president of the United States.

I mean I mean you have to the way it's been described to me the president's trip to China where he leaves Washington on Air Force One and realizes that Jensen Wong is not on the manifest for his trip to China and and the and he gets briefed by we understand Secretary of State Marco Rubio because there are suspicions that he may uh be sleeping with a Chinese spy and the president wants him on this trip.

So he calls Jensen Wong from Air Force One and says, "Can you meet us in Alaska where we're going to be refueling Air Force One?"

And it's I mean, I'm told it was very close whether or not he could scramble.

And by the way, he's the head of one of the most important companies in the world.

and he drops everything to to fire up his maybe Trump just wanted to keep an eye on him based on his I mean the president's at the middle of this and of course you know the real pressure right now the first pressure point's going to be the commerce secretary right um quickly Chuck Schumer Hakee Jeff big week coming up for them quickly they have are there any real foreseeable threats to their rise to leadership in their respective houses.

Maybe Jonathan, Senator Chris Van Holland of of Maryland is gonna try try and challenge Chuck Schumer.

I don't know how far that will go.

Um uh their biggest challenge is being leaders of a big big big complicated co coalition.

Now that's what happens when you win people.

I mean this is natural but it's a tough leadership and a progressive wing that is coming in and feeling themselves.

I mean they they really and even if they they don't challenge Hakee Jeff they will make sure that they are going to be heard.

The interesting thing about that going to what John has said is that the the the Democratic caucus is so big that the power of that progressive wing is actually a little bit diluted or am I no you're exactly right.

This isn't like the Freedom Caucus that would constantly give Kevin McCarthy or Mike Johnson problems because the margin was so narrow that a couple of guys in the Freedom Caucus could derail a piece of legislation.

There aren't enough progressives to derail a piece of legislation.

Chuck Schumer in trouble.

I I he I don't think he is.

But look, Van Holland is mounting a really serious and I think quite personal uh campaign against Chuck Schumer, challenging challenging his integrity essentially uh for you know the the where his sources of money come from uh his position on Israel, his his association with Apac.

I mean it's a it's a it's a pretty brutal campaign.

This isn't a nice hey we you know we just have some disagreements on policy.

This is a tough challenge.

I think it will fail.

Hakeim Jeffy's smoother smoother sailing we think.

And also he has history behind him.

I mean there's a certain amount of enthusiasm on top of his um leadership style because he would be the first African-American.

Yeah.

There's no opposition within the House Democratic caucus.

But there is in the base that think that he is not tough enough.

There is this amazing quality to to to the to the rush of news these days where we we don't even pause as much as we should to say, "Oh my goodness, the the House of Representatives is going to have a black speaker of the house."

Another thing worth noting uh is that u a big winner of this weird week is uh Scott Colom um Mississippi Democrat, first black representative, first black senator from Mississippi in 150 years.

You're an expert on this subject, John.

I I know he he was giving Kelso Bruce.

Yeah, he was giving me the history before.

guy.

Um, but Michelle, talk about that.

And actually, it's a it's an interesting way to talk about Gwen in a way because Gwen, one of her many one of her many subsp specialties was tracking the and reporting on the rise of a new generation of African-American politicians.

She would be absolutely fascinated by the idea that Mississippi of all places is sending a black Democrat to the Senate.

Did you all miss her this week?

What are you thinking about her this week that you know on Tuesday this week or I miss her all the time?

Whenever you think of her, you kind of the text that would have been flying the conversations.

She would have loved this.

And you're right, she would have spotted.

She was a tremendous spotter of early talent.

Yeah.

Yeah, she was always looking down the road at, you know, who was that was her book was all about that.

Just one word before we talk about Gwen and that though was with Scott.

He said something interesting about the leadership in um the leadership race here in Washington.

Both Schumer and Aake come from the same bureau bureau, you know, I mean, so there, you know, and as a southerner, he's saying, you know, maybe we need to think about having that kind at least get somebody from Can we talk about diversity of that kind?

Also, I'm not sure I like this subtle prejudice against the five burrows.

Well, we're talking a single burrow, but the idea that he did this um now, yes, he was running against a weak candidate and he was running in an unusual year where people were concerned about affordability and corruption and the chaos that we've been talking about.

But he also just ran a really tight campaign and he went and campaigned in places that other people have not campaigned in.

He went to every corner of that state.

His wife was in a food truck and she was traveling all over the state.

His father is a Republican and so he had a leg up in going to some of the places that Democrats have ignored.

He himself is a gun owner, believes in gun rights to a certain extent.

He's a former prosecutor, prosecutor.

Yeah.

And and so I think it is a message about the limits of our imagination as journalists, but for the party, you know, to think about where these possibilities exist because the party didn't see this happening.

There were very few people who thought that he had a path to victory.

No, you know, that's and and I want to pivot, but the amazing thing is Texas was surprising.

Kansas is really surprising.

Mississippi is another level.

And that just shows how what a dramatic race this was.

You can imagine Gwen asking, "Was the Supreme Court right when they said the Voting Rights Act didn't wasn't necessary anymore because the South had had changed?"

and you know columns election maybe show that I think the answer from perhaps even Gwen would be you can have progress without necessarily getting rid of or thinking that had that what is gone are all the efforts to try to to stop progress right the Obama presidency well exactly Hyram rebels just to do one the very first black senator from from Mississippi Blanch Kelso Bruce's predecessor when he came to Washington his opponent said when he came to Washington his opponent said you're not a citizen, you shouldn't be a senator.

Right?

Draw that line right to the current sitting president of the United States who attacked Barack Obama for not being a citizen.

We're not that far from that history.

By the way, people who voted did did bring a $10 note that's signed by Blanch Kelsey.

This is in Washington DC.

For some reason, I feel like we're on a reconstruction reconstruction uh quiz bowl didn't allow show and tell.

No, no, there was no show and tell.

We're gonna I'm gonna seize control of this table.

Can I It was provident that it happened on Veterans Day because the veterans played such a role in pushing this country forward in the civil rights movement.

Megar Evers included, right?

And we should just note that this is not ancient history that some of the people who voted for Scott Col remembered having to pass a pole test.

Remembered what it was like, you know, when when that that hill was so much deeper.

Let us um bring our uh our viewers to Gwen.

I just want you to watch this uh what just brief compilation of Gwen in many different settings.

I've been overwhelmed by the good wishes sent my way as I move to the head of our little table here at Washington Week.

Welcome to the first and the only 2008 Vice Presidential Debate.

Good evening and welcome to Elkcart, Indiana as we sit down with President Obama.

I'm here in St.

Petersburg, Florida.

We are here in Postde Milwaukee.

Hello and welcome to Philadelphia.

Join us every Friday night.

We'll always have a lot to say and we'll always want to hear what you have to say as well.

One thing we didn't have there, Michelle, was Gwen with a broken ankle still doing national debates.

But um give us the give us the framing here.

I mean, you were very very close to to Gwen.

What did she bring to national journalism that we didn't really have before her rise?

Well, it's easy to say that, you know, she was an African-American woman, so she brought a level of diversity into every room that she entered.

But she was our standard bearer and she had this she was a compass.

She was a walking exclamation point and a walking compass.

She was the the person who would call you and I think all of us have received those calls, step away from the keyboard.

She was the person who pushed you to find your best self as journalists.

And she cared about journalism.

She cared about the craft of journalism.

She called it a craft and she was a defender of journalism and she was also um a cultivator.

One of the things that I always appreciated is that she was always working with young people.

Yeah.

She made time.

There are a number of people who see themselves as mentees and accoltes and if you traveled with her as I often did, people would not approach her as a celebrity.

They would approach her as a friend.

And so for people who watch this show every night, for people who saw her on PBS or people who saw her on campaigns and in debates, she had something magical about her that she connected with people.

She was tough, but she was not a scold, right?

She was a standard bearer, but she was not like Tracy Flick.

She wasn't like wagging a finger at anyone.

She was beckoning you to find your best self.

I I want you to watch with me um a a moment from Gwen's funeral.

This is John Dickerson uh giving a eulogy at at the funeral.

I'm not going to say it in church, but there's a very specific word for what Gwen could detect.

It is our greatest local crop in Washington.

John, talk talk about that quality of Gwen just not brooking any nonsense, including from those of us at the table.

I mean, when you Well, or especially Yeah.

Well, I mean, what what I remember, it happened many, many different times on the campaign trail or at an some administration gaggle with some official.

You know, there's a little bit of footsie that happens at the beginning of that, some joking around or whatever.

And Gwen had very little patience for that.

There were you were there to do business and often she would ask a question that not only punctured that little moment and got to the business of why we were there but sort of re reframed and made more serious that exchange with the administration official.

I I want you guys to watch one other um moment, a very famous moment from Gwen's life.

This is in 2004 when she's doing a vice presidential debate and it's a Dick Cheney and John Edwards.

Um, and she asks what has become a very very famous question, the sort of question that had not been asked in in previous debates.

Watch this with me because I want I want to talk about this.

I want to talk to you about AIDS and not about AIDS in China or Africa, but AIDS right here in this country where black women between the ages of 25 and 44 are 13 times more likely to die of the disease than their counterparts.

What should the government's role be in helping to end the growth of this epidemic?

Let me um turn this on its head because when we talk about race in this country, we always talk about African-Americans, people of color.

I want to talk to you about white people.

Okay, white people.

Well, I know that was a moment in 2016 when Gwen, I think, was winking at all of us and saying, "You know what?

I'm gonna I'm gonna make Bernie Sanders a little bit uncomfortable for a minute."

And he tried to diffuse it with humor and she like glowed right ahead.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, no, no.

Talk talk about that that moment.

That was an interesting example.

Uh this is a question for both of you.

Interesting example of of diversity in the truest most substantive sense.

It's like bringing people with different backgrounds, different experiences.

They're going to have different kinds of questions.

I I love that you included both of them because in the first you know that Dick Cheney and John Edwards were briefed to the high heavens and they were not ready for that question, right?

There was no way that they were ready for that question.

And so she was bringing she was bringing people along with her.

She was bringing black women into that debate along with her and saying you deserve to be a part of this conversation.

On the other hand, she was also saying, you know, when we talk about race, white Americans too often get to be spectators.

And so if we're actually going to talk about race, let's have a full conversation and let's make sure and I neither Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders are probably prepared for that question either.

Gwen had a worldview and that worldview was not swayed or affected by the shiny thing of the moment or the hottake of the moment.

And that is what we all admired is that set of standards.

Talk about standards, John.

I I I mean like she would ask the relevant question, the pointed question, and persistently insist on getting an answer, but she did it in a way that wasn't like unnecessarily adversarial.

I mean, you still really liked Gwen Ifill, I think, even when she was asking you, you know, the smile was incredibly famous and and and incandescent, but there was no nonsense.

No nonsense at all.

What lesson do you when you look at her career and the way she when the way she led herself in public.

What lesson do you as someone in the business take from the way she did things?

You know, first of all, I I first got to know her in 1999, 198 1998, 1999 when I was covering the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

So was she for for the Today Show.

And I had to be the I was there.

I spent my life up on Capitol Hill during during those months.

And so did Gwen.

I never saw anybody more hardworking.

I often had the second car in the little parking area on East Capitol Street where journalists could could park back then.

The first car was Gwen's or I would have the first, she would have the second.

We were always the first to arrive and I got to and we we were covering this historic event and I just those moments in the morning getting her kind of like cutting through the the the BS.

Yes, this is a big historic moment and it's also like what are we really doing here?

You know, the thing I think about is the word anchor.

We use that word all the time, but we forget what it really means.

It keeps you on track.

It's that thing that that actually keeps you on track.

And and you know, a lot of anchors don't necessarily do that.

We're glad that you do.

But but not Well, I think Gwen would think I tell too many jokes on this on this show.

She would actually.

She would.

No, I hear her.

Believe me, I hear her.

As quick a laugh as Gwen had and that gorgeous smile when you if one cracked a joke at the table, she would not smile.

Oh, I remember she didn't believe that that was the role or that her viewers uh you know that was not uh that she it was very No, no, no, no.

I I would make twice the number of jokes if I didn't have Gwen in my head right now.

The first the first person in my life I've it's a grace to work with somebody who makes you want to be so much m better than you can be who lifts your game and she was the first I experienced that.

Speaking of jokes, um Gwen was also a an international icon.

She was a celebrity.

She managed it well.

But I want you to watch these couple of moments.

The first is from Queen Latifah and the second is from Will Ferrell when he's getting the Mark Twain Prize a number of years ago.

Good evening.

I'm Gwen Ifill.

Welcome to Washington University in St.

Louis, Missouri to the first and only 2008 vice presidential debate.

I mean, tonight if I after the show, if I want to go on a bender with Gwen Ifill and uh buy a couple spear guns and try to scale the Washington Monument, I'm going to do it.

Okay.

I don't know that she she would do all of that, but she might have a sip of brown liquor with him at the end of the night.

She loved the Queen Latifa bit and it actually came at a moment that really she had broken her ankle and so when she did that that debate um she was hobbling on one foot and she was really she would did it without any painkillers because she wanted to be totally present.

So when that happened it was really something that was very very special to her.

And the thing that that you didn't show though the thing that really got to her is when little girls would come to the door on Halloween because she was big on Halloween.

She loved kids and they would come to the door dressed as Gwen Ifill.

And so as much as she loved Queen Latifah, she loved that she was having this effect on the neck.

That is that's a that's an amazing story.

Well, she was um she was singular.

We all know that.

And um I think I speak for this panel when I say that.

Uh we all miss her very much.

I'm sure you at home also miss her very much.

We are going to have to leave it there.

I'm I'm glad that we had the time to talk about Gwen Ifill and her legacy.

She won't be forgotten.

Uh we loved her here.

We loved her everywhere and we all miss her very very much.

Uh I want to thank our guests for joining me for this very very moving conversation.

I want to thank you at home for watching us.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg borrowing Gwen Ifill's seat.

Good night from Washington.

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