[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

THIS WEEK IN OUR WOMEN THOUGHT LEADER SERIES, WE HAVE AMALA EKPUNOBI.

EKPUNOBI IS A 21-YEAR-OLD SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCE OR AND PRAGER FORCE MEMBER.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: WELCOME TO WILL AND ALIVE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: PRAGER IS A MEDIA COMPANY THAT CREATES VIDEOS ON VARIOUS POLITICAL, ECONOMIC, AND SOCIAL TOPICS FROM A CONSERVATIVE VIEWPOINT.

EKPUNOBI IS TO BE AN ADVOCATE FOR THE LEFT, NOW WORKS FOR THE RIGHT AND HAS A PODCAST.

SO, AMALA, WELCOME VERY MUCH TO THIS PROGRAM.

PLEASE TELL OUR AUDIENCE WHAT YOU DO AND, WELL, LET'S START WITH THE BACKGROUND.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: SO I WAS BORN INTO A BIRACIAL HOUSEHOLD.

MOMENT FATHER IS IN A AN IMMIGRANT, MY MOTHER IS AMERICAN, WHITE.

AND THROUGHOUT THE DURATION OF MILLION CHILDHOOD, I WAS RAISED IN A LEFTIST HOUSEHOLD.

MY MOTHER IS A POLITICAL ACTIVIST.

SHE ACTUALLY WORKS FOR THE LEFT.

GROWING UP AS YOUNG PERSON, I WAS ALWAYS MADE WELL AWARE OF WHAT IT MEANT TO BE BLACK OR HALF BLACK AND A FEMALE IN AMERICA, AND THAT HELD A SORT OF CONDITION THAT I WAS GOING TO STRUGGLE A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN WHITE PEOPLE WOULD AND SPECIFICALLY WHITE MALES.

SO I GREW UP WITH THAT NARRATIVE NOT ONLY IN MY HOUSEHOLD, BUT I GOT IT TO THE NEWS AND SOCIAL MEDIA, AND I WAS HEARING IT IN SCHOOL AND A LOT OF MY TEACHINGS.

AND AS A YOUNG PERSON, THAT'S GOING TO MAKE YOU HARBOR A LOT, A LOT OF ANGER TOWARDS NOT ONLY THIS COUNTRY, BUT IT'S INSTITUTIONS AND SYMPTOMS, BECAUSE I WAS TOLD THAT TO THE NARRATIVE THESE INSTITUTIONS AND SYSTEMS WERE PITTED AGAINST ME FROM THE VERY FOUNDATION AND THEIR VERY CREATION.

SO I WASN'T ANGRY, ANGRY YOUNG PERSON.

I WENT THROUGH MIDDLE SCHOOL AND HIGH SCHOOL AND I WAS THE KID WHO WOULD ORGANIZE PROTESTS AND YELL ABOUT MY POLITICAL BELIEFS, AND WHEN I GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL, I WAS SO GOOD AT RUNNING MY MOUTH ABOUT THESE THINGS THAT I GOT HIRED AT MY MOTHER'S ORGANIZATION AS A YOUTH ORGANIZER.

SO I WAS RUNNING AROUND TALKING TO YOUNG PEOPLE ABOUT SOCIALISM AND GENDER THEORY AND RADICAL FEMINISM AND SYSTEMIC RACISM.

JUST PUSHING THE NARRATIVE FURTHER.

I WAS INDOCTRINATED.

I WENT TO INDOCTRINATE OTHER YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND AFTER ABOUT A YEAR OR SO OF DOING THAT JOB, THERE WAS DEFINITELY CHINKS IN THE ARMOR OF THE IDEOLOGY THAT I HELD THAT I WAS BEGINNING TO QUESTION, AND I BROUGHT THESE QUESTIONS TO THE PEOPLE AT MY ORGANIZATION: MY COWORKERS, MY BOSSES, MY SUPERVISORS, AND THEY DID NOT WANT TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND I THINK THAT'S PRETTY AND WILL MEDICAL FOR WE ARE AS A COUNTRY.

NOBODY WANTS TO HAVE THE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS AND NOBODY WANTS TO TRULY FIND TRUTH.

IT IS A YOUNG PERSON, I WENT TO THE INTERNET TO FIND ANSWERS AND I FOUND PRAGER YOU VIDEOS AND CONSOLE IN DAVE RUSAN AND ALL THESE AMAZING CONSERVATIVES WHO WERE MAKING SPLASHES IN THE SPACE AND REALIZED THAT MAYBE I WAS NOT ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE STORY.

AND ABOUT A YEAR OR SO AFTER THAT, I STARTED MAKING VIDEOS ON THE INTERNET THAT WENT VIRAL OUT OF NOWHERE AND PRAGER YOU PICKED ME UP.

SO HERE WE ARE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: NOW, IT IS CERTAINLY UNDERSTANDABLE THAT YOU WOULD FIND PROBLEMS WITH THE FAR LEFT IDEOLOGY WHEN YOU ARE INCLUDING -- WHEN YOU ARE INCLUDING SOCIALISM.

BUT WHY -- IF YOU ADMIT TO YOURSELF THAT THERE ARE EXTREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES WHO ARE DAMAGING THE PUBLIC DIALOGUE, DAMAGING THE ABILITY OF AMERICANS TO GET ALONG, WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT RIGHT -- THE RIGHT EXTREME IS ANY LESS A PART OF THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH AMERICA?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I DO THINK THAT THE RIGHT EXTREME HAS A MASSIVE PROBLEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO COMMUNICATING WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

I WOULDN'T IDENTIFY MYSELF AS A MEMBER OF THE FAR RIGHT EXTREME GROUP BY ANY MEANS.

I FIND MYSELF TO BE WHAT I GUESS PEOPLE WOULD CALL A MODERATE CONSERVATIVE.

THINK WHAT PEOPLE DO WITH PRAGER U AS THEY LOOK AT OUR VIDEOS, OR CONTENT IN THE MAKE AN ASSUMPTION THAT WE ARE SOMEHOW SOME FAR RIGHT EXTREMIST MEDIA COMPANY.

BUT I WOULD NOT CALL US THAT WHATSOEVER.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO YOU -- TO KNOW ABOUT THE COMPANY, BUT I'M JUST ASKING YOU, IN PARTICULAR, DO YOU SUPPORT FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: IN MANY WAYS IDEA.

I THINK HIS RHETORIC OR HIS MOUTH COME TO HELP HIM IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

BUT I DO THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF POLICIES THAT HE INSTITUTED DURING HIS PRESIDENCY THAT WAS QUITE HELPFUL.

WE SAW AN ECONOMIC BOOM DURING HIS PREGNANT -- PRESIDENCY.

I THINK WHAT WE FOCUSED ON A LOT AND WHAT HE GOT HIMSELF IN TROUBLE WITH HIS HIS, AGAIN, RHETORIC, HIS MOUTH.

I DON'T THINK IT WAS A PROPER COMMUNICATOR AND I THINK YOU SHOW A TROUBLED COUNTRY WHEN SOMEONE LIKE THAT IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

AND HE'S GOING TO RUN AGAIN, IT SEEMS LIKE, IN '24.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO DEMOCRACY IF HE WINS?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE SOME VERY, VERY POLARIZED TIMES.

I DON'T SEE THE DIVIDE BEING MENDED ON EITHER SIDE.

I DON'T SEE A LOT OF EFFORT TO AMEND THE DIVIDE ON EITHER SIDE.

IF WE GET A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENTIAL RUN, WHICH I HOPE WE DO NOT, I THINK THE POLARIZATION IS ONLY GOING TO CONTINUE, AND EVERYBODY'S GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO IT.

IS THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM, IT'S THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA WHO CHOOSES TO RUN PROPAGANDA RATHER THAN TRUTH, AND IT'S THE PEOPLE ON THE FAR LEFT TO SHOUT OUT ABOUT PATRIARCHY AND RACISM WHEN THERE'S VERY LITTLE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS CLAIM!

I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE AMERICA GET A LOT WORSE BEFORE IT GETS ANY BETTER.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY IT'S THE AMERICAN MEDIA ABOUT TRUMP, WHAT I SEE IN MOST MEDIA THESE DAYS ARE THAT HE IS -- IT IS UNTRUE THAT HE LOST THE ELECTION.

IS UNTRUE THAT HE ACTUALLY WON THE ALONG CHAIR AND POINTED WAS STOLEN BY PRESIDENT BIDEN.

SO WHY IS THAT -- WHY ARE YOU CRITICIZING THE MEDIA FOR PUTTING OUT THAT MESSAGE?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: IS NOT NECESSARILY THAT MESSAGE THAT I CRITICIZE THE MEDIA FOR, ALTHOUGH THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE AND DIRECT PRIMARY VIDEOS OF PEOPLE COMMITTING ELECTION FRAUD THAT I THINK WERE NOT PERFECTLY LOOKED INTO AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

BUT IT'S THE NARRATIVE OF RACISM IN PATRIARCHY THAT THE MEDIA PUSHES ONTO AMERICAN CITIZENS TO MAKE THEM FEEL LIKE VICTIMS THAT THEY REALLY TAKE UMBRAGE WITH.

AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'VE DONE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE RESIDENCY OF DONALD TRUMP.

THEY PUSH THAT HE WAS SOME SORT OF RACIST, BIGOTED, MISOGYNISTIC MAN, AND THE NARRATIVE OF THE EVIL WHITE MALE CAPITALIST WAS SO PERVASIVE DURING HIS PRESIDENCY.

THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE THING THAT THAT MAN COULD HAVE DONE RIGHT THAT WOULD'VE GOTTEN COVERED BY THE MEDIA IN A POSITIVE LIGHT.

AND THAT SHOWS A CLEAR BIAS.

HAT I TAKE UMBRAGE WITH ON BOTH THE POLITICAL RIGHT AND THE POLITICAL LEFT WHEN IT COMES TO MEDIA IS THAT THERE IS SO MUCH BIAS.

THEY NEVER LOOK FOR OBJECTIVITY ANYMORE.HERE IS CLEARLY AN AGENDA ON BOTH SIDES, THOUGH I WOULD ARGUE MORE SO ON THE LEFT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT OW TELL ME ABOUT YOUR BEING BIRACIAL.

DO YOU -- IN THIS COUNTRY FOR THE MOST PART WHEN SOMEONE IS BIRACIAL, WE REFER TO THEM AS BLACK.

IS THAT A WRONG ASSUMPTION TO MAKE?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: YES, I WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT'S A WRONG ASSUMPTION.

AND ITS, AGAIN, IS TIED TO THAT SENSE OF VICTIMHOOD THAT BECAUSE I'M BLACK, I SOMEHOW HAVE AN ATTACHMENT TO A CULTURE OF RACISM.

I WAS TOLD FOR A VERY -- SEVERAL TIMES DURING MY YOUNG ADULTHOOD THAT YOU'RE NOT BIRACIAL, YOU ARE BLACK OR YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHAT RACE YOU IDENTIFY AS, AND THAT'S NOT OBJECTIVE.

YOUR RACE IS NOT A SUBJECTIVE THING THAT YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHAT YOU IDENTIFY AS.

I WAS BORN TO A WHITE MOM AND A BLACK FATHER, THEREFORE I AM BIRACIAL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: HAVE HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH WOMEN OF COLOR, WITH BLACK WOMEN, ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

IF SO, HOW DID THE CONVERSATIONS GO?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: WHEN I HAVE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT RACE AND IDENTITY, FROM THE LEFTIST STANDPOINT, WITH WOMEN OF COLOR, IT TENDS TO BE, WELL, THAT'S HOW YOU ARE PERCEIVED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC WHEN YOU WALK OUT YOUR FRONT DOOR.

PEOPLE DON'T LOOK AT YOU AND GO, THERE IS A BIRACIAL FEMALE.

THEY LOOK AT YOU AND SAY THERE'S A BLACK FEMALE.

POLICE LOOK AT YOU AND SAY THERE'S A BLACK FEMALE.

AND OF COURSE, THAT IS NOT -- THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: INTERESTING.

AND HOW DOES BEING BIRACIAL VERSUS BEING BLACK CHANGE YOUR POSITION IN SOCIETY, YOUR REVIEW OF SOCIETY, YOUR VIEW ABOUT RACISM IN AMERICA?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: IT DOES NOT CHANGE IT WHATSOEVER, I WOULD SAY.ND I THINK THE HEART OF THE ISSUE IS THAT WE THINK RACE CHANGES THE WAY THAT PEOPLE THINK AND THE WAY THAT PEOPLE PERCEIVE THEIR SOCIETY.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S REALLY TOXIC ABOUT WHAT THE LEFT PURPORTS, AND IT'S THAT BECAUSE YOU ARE BORN BLACK, BECAUSE YOUR SKIN IS A LITTLE BIT DARKER THEN THE WHITE PERSON ACROSS THE STREET, LIFE IS DIFFERENT FOR YOU.

YOU VIEW THINGS DIFFERENTLY, YOU SHOULD HAVE A CERTAIN MINDSET THAT IS ATTACHED TO THAT RACE WITH THAT PART OF YOUR IDENTITY.

AND THAT REDUCTION OF SOMEBODY DOWN TO A BOX THAT YOU CREATED BASED ON THE RACE IS VERY, VERY HARMFUL.

NOBODY SHOULD LOOK AT ME AND SAY, WELL, THERE IS A BLACK FEMALE.

I EXPECT THIS OUT OF HER MOUTH, I EXPECT HER TO BELIEVE THIS!

AND AS SOON AS WE DO THAT, WE HAVE TAKEN AWAY FROM THE CONVERSATION.

WE HAVE TAKEN AWAY FROM UNITY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED ANY KIND OF RACIST TREATMENT?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: OH, ABSOLUTELY.

IN MY YOUNG LIFE, I HAVE BEEN CALLED THE N-WORD AT SCHOOL AND HAD RACIAL SLURS THROWN AT ME.

I WAS CALLED AN OREO AS A KID.

SO THERE'S DEFINITELY BEEN SEVERAL INSTANCES WHERE RACE HAS GOTTEN NEGATIVE -- AIRES HAS GOTTEN NEGATIVE FEEDBACK.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IN YOUR CAREER IS VERY YOUNG AT THIS POINT, BUT HAVE YOU EVER FELT THAT YOUR CAREER WAS IMPEDED BY A RACIST WHO HAD SOME KIND OF CONTROL OVER YOUR FUTURE, YOUR JOB, YOUR PROMOTION?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: OH, ABSOLUTELY NOT, AND I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER NARRATIVE THAT I THINK HAS VERY LITTLE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT.

IF ANYTHING, GROWING UP IN MY SCHOOLING, IN HIGH SCHOOL, WHEN I GOT OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL AND STARTED LOOKING INTO THE JOB MARKET, IT WAS A PRIVILEGE TO BE A BLACK FEMALE.

THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR WHEN I WAS APPLYING FOR SCHOLARSHIPS INTO COLLEGE.

I WOULD HAVE TEACHERS GO, WHEN YOU GET TO THE RACE PART, DON'T PUT YOUR BIRACIAL, DON'T PUT WHITE AND BLACK.

SIMPLY PUT BLACK.

MAKE SURE YOU PUT A REAL DARK CHECKMARK ON THAT FEMA PART AND YOU WILL GET INTO COLLEGE.

YOU WILL GET THE SCHOLARSHIP!

YOU WILL GET THE JOB.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE NOW HAVE AN HONOR AND A PRIVILEGE TO BE A BLACK FEMALE.

THERE'S REALLY NO BETTER DEMOGRAPHIC TO BE A PART OF IN THIS COUNTRY RIGHT NOW THAN WHAT I AM.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND DO YOU THINK IT HELPED YOU GET -- READY TO GO TO COLLEGE AND DO YOU THINK THAT WAS A FACTOR IN YOUR ADMISSION?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: SO I ENDED UP NOT GOING TO COLLEGE RIGHT AFTER HIGH SCHOOL.

ENDED UP WORKING FOR THE LEFTIST ORGANIZATION THAT MY MOTHER WAS WORKING FOR.

SO THAT WAS MY IMMEDIATE JUMP FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

AFTER THAT, I STARTED GOING TO A COMMUNITY COLLEGE VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, LESS THAN A COUPLE SEMESTERS AND LEFT FOR PRAGER U.

SO THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE WAS JUST AN OPEN ADMISSION.

SO I CAN IMAGINE THAT MY RESET ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT, BUT HAD I APPLIED TO YALE OR HARVARD OR ROLLINS COLLEGE, AS I DID APPLY TO, REESE WOULD HAVE PLAN A MAJOR FACTOR IN WHETHER OR NOT I WAS ADMITTED.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO YOU ARE SKIPPING COLLEGE ENTIRELY?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: AT THE MOMENT, HIMSELF EDUCATING.

FROM WHAT I'M SEEING OUTSIDE OF COLLEGE CAMPUSES AND WHAT'S BEING TAUGHT, I THINK I CAN SKIP OUT ON THAT FOR NOW.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU DON'T THINK YOU COULD BE A REALLY GOOD SPOKESPERSON FOR CRITIQUING, WHAT YOU SAY IS BEING TAUGHT NOW?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: THE AMAZING PART OF WHAT I DO IS I GET TO DO THAT WITHOUT HAVING TO ACTUALLY GO ON TO THE COLLEGE CAMPUSES .

THROUGH GREATER FORCE, WE ARE ATTACHED TO THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN COLLEGES ALL OVER ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, IN SEPARATE COUNTRIES, PLUS WE DO A LOT OF REPORTING ON THE CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND THE GENDER THEORY AND THE CULTURAL MARXISM THAT'S BEING TAUGHT IN COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

SO I GET A KENAI TO IT WITHOUT HAVING TO ACTUALLY GO ONTO THE COLLEGE CAMPUS AND TAKE THE COURSES, WHICH IS NICE FOR ME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DOES PRAGER OFFER EDUCATIONAL CREDENTIALS?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: NO.

SO PRAGER UNIVERSITY IS NOT ACTUALLY A UNIVERSITY.

WE ARE JUST A DIGITAL MEDIA COMPANY THAT FOCUSES ON EDUCATION AND LIFESTYLE IN POLITICS AND ECONOMICS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TELL ME ABOUT YOUR VIEW OF WHAT IS CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH IT BEING TAUGHT IN SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: SURE.

SO CRITICAL RACE THEORY, THE LEFT WOULD SAY NOW THAT IT IS A LAW THEORY THAT ESSENTIALLY PURPORTS THAT AMERICA'S SYSTEMS AND INSTITUTIONS HAVE SOME SORT OF SYSTEMIC RACISM BAKED INTO THEM.

THE EVIDENCE THIS WITH JIM CROW AND IN SLAVERY AND SAY THAT THE INSTITUTIONS WILL DURING THAT TIME STILL HARBOR SOME OF THAT SYSTEMIC HATRED OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IN CRITICAL RACE THEORY AIMS TO TEACH PEOPLE ABOUT RACE IN A WAY THAT I THINK IS EXTREMELY DETRIMENTAL.

AND THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT IS ABOUT TEACHING TRUE HISTORY, WHEN REALLY IT'S NOT.

IT'S ABOUT NOT ONLY JUST TEACHING HISTORY, PROCLAIMING THAT THE SYSTEMIC RACISM OF THE PAST IS STILL PRESENT IN TODAY AND IT'S CARRIED WITH PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR RACE, THEIR POWER, AND THE PRIVILEGE, AND IT'S NOT ONLY BEING TAUGHT IN LAW SCHOOLS, BUT IN UNIVERSITIES AND IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS HERE IN THIS NATION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT ABOUT SLAVERY AND THE SENDING OFF TO SCHOOL OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF -- TO BE RETRAINED TO BECOME CHRISTIANS OF NATIVE AMERICANS FOR THE LAST CENTURY?

I MEAN, IT WAS GOING ON UNTIL THE '60s AND CERTAINLY STARTED BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK -- HOW SHOULD THAT BE TAUGHT?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: IT SHOULD BE TAUGHT THE VERY SAME WAY IT WAS TALK TO ME WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL, GOING, HERE'S AMERICAN HISTORY.THERE WAS SLAVERY IN AMERICA IN THE 1860'S!

WE HAD A CIVIL WAR.

WE EMANCIPATED SLAVES.

SLAVERY STILL PERSISTED.

WE HAD A JIM CROW AMERICA UP UNTIL THE 1960 CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WERE WE HAD AMAZING, BRAVE BLACK AND WHITE ACTIVISTS COME FORTH AND SAY, NO, IT'S NOT OKAY THAT WE TREAT PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THEIR SKIN COLOR.

IT'S NOT OKAY THAT WE TREAT PEOPLE TO FINALLY BASED ON THEIR GENDER, AS WE SAW IN THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT.

BUT WHAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY AIMS AND CLAIMS IS THAT THE RACISM STILL PERSISTS SYSTEMICALLY IN AMERICA.

AND I HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO IMPLEMENT CRITICAL RACE THEORY IN THESE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, DIVIDE CHILDREN UP BY RACE, HAVE THEM RANK EACH OTHER BASED ON THE POWER AND PRIVILEGE.ND WHAT THAT DOES TO A YOUNG MIND, ESPECIALLY A YOUNG PERSON OF COLOR, IS TO CONVINCE THEM OF THEIR VICTIMHOOD BEFORE THEY'VE EVEN HAD THE CHANCE TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS THE ISSUE THAT I TAKE WITH CRITICAL RACE THEORY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

I WANT TO READ A COUPLE QUOTES FROM YOUR TWITTER ACCOUNT RECENTLY.

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THEY MEAN.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: SURE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHY YOU WROTE THEM.

FIRST, ALL CONSERVATIVES AREN'T NEO-NAZIS AND ALL LEFTISTS AREN'T WOKE RADICAL!

THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO FIGHT EACH OTHER BY MAKING HASTY GENERALIZATIONS BASED ON THE EXTREMES WE SEE.

THIS IS A DISSERVICE TO POLITICAL DISCOURSE.

AND THEN THE SECOND ONE: IF YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT SOMEONE HAS DONE SOMETHING RIGHT SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH THEM IDEOLOGICALLY OR YOU FALL ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE AISLE, YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE DIVIDE.

WHICH SIDE, IF EITHER, DO YOU THINK IS MORE GUILTY OF THAT THESE DAYS?

AND I INCLUDE THAT, AS WE SPEAK, IT'S ABOUT A YEAR AFTER THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION AT THE CAPITOL.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE LEFT, THE POLITICAL LEFT, SPECIFICALLY THE MINORITY LOCAL LEFT IS FAR MORE CONTRIBUTORY TO THAT.

IS EVIDENCED, REALLY, IN THE HATE THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED ONLINE, VIA EXPRESSED ANGER WHEN CONSERVATIVES TRY TO GO AND SPEAK ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

IS NOT AN ANGER THAT WE SHARE WITH THEM WHEN LEFTISTS TRY TO COME AND SPEAK ON CAMPUSES.

THE RIOTS THAT HAPPENED AFTER GEORGE FLOYD, THE CENSORSHIP THAT'S HAPPENING WITH BIG TECH.

THERE IS SO MUCH EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE LEFT IS FAR MORE AGGRESSIVE WHEN IT COMES TO STAMPING OUT DISSIDENT OPINIONS AND KEEPING CONSERVATIVES FROM SHARING WHAT THEIR BELIEFS ARE.

NOW, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT JANUARY 6, I HAVE A MIXED OPINION ON THAT: I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD CALL THAT AN INSURRECTION BY ANY MEANS AND I THINK IT'S BEING USED AS A POLITICAL TOOL TO PAINT CONSERVATIVES AS VIOLENT EXTREMISTS WHEN MOST OF US ARE NOT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT WHEN -- I WAS LISTENING TO ONE OF THE CAPITOL POLICE OFFICERS WHO WAS ALMOST KILLED AT AT THE CAPITOL.

HE WAS TASERED.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THIS WAS JUST FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I DON'T AGREE THAT THAT'S FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

I THINK VIOLENCE IS A TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE THING TO COMMITTEE CAN SOMEONE AND THOSE PEOPLE ARE HORRIBLE PEOPLE.

HOWEVER, THIS PEOPLE ARE NOT AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT MY BELIEFS ARE WHERE THE GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT I CHOOSE TO ASSOCIATE MYSELF WITH POLITICALLY.

TO THE PEOPLE WHO GO AND COMMIT VIOLENT ACTS AND HIT POLICE OFFICERS, I'M NOT A FAN OF BY ANY MEANS AND THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD BE PERSECUTED FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO YOU DON'T THINK THAT EVENT WAS AN INSURRECTION?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WAS?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I WOULD CALL THAT A RIOT.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED ON JANUARY 6 WERE NONVIOLENT.

THEY WERE SIMPLY THERE TO PROTEST WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS A FRAUDULENT ELECTION.

NOW, THE PEOPLE WHO DID GET VIOLENT AND HURT POLICE OFFICERS, WHO VANDALIZED, THIS PEOPLE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHY DO YOU SAY IT'S NOT A REPRESENTATION OF MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE?

THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH ALL TRYING TO GET INTO THE CAPITOL.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: IN THE VIDEOS I HAVE SEEN, THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WAITING OUTSIDE THE CAPITOL WITH NO MEANS ARE URGED TO GET IN THE CAPITOL.

IS PROBLEMATIC WHEN WE LOOK AT AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ALL SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS DOING SEPARATE THINGS AND TAKE THE MOST EXTREME OF THAT GROUP AND SAY YOU ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF EVERYBODY THERE, THE SAME WAY I WOULD NOT SAY THAT ALL OF THE RIOTERS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH WERE EXTREMISTS AND TRYING TO BRING DOWN THIS COUNTRY IS THE SAME WAY I WOULD NOT SAY THAT EVERYBODY AT JANUARY 6 WAS AN INSURRECTIONIST TRYING TO BREAK INTO THE CAPITOL UNTIL POLITICIANS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RIGHT.

BUT AT LEAST IN THE FLOYD PROTESTS AND THERE WEREN'T MURDERS OR ATTEMPTED MURDERS OF POLICE OFFICERS.

DEFINITELY IN THE NAME OF THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT.

WE HAD FIVE OFFICERS KILLED IN DALLAS, SHOT AND KILLED BY A BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTER.

AND IN THE GEORGE FLOYD RIOTS, WE HAD OVER 20 CITIZENS, AMERICAN CITIZENS KILLED DURING THOSE RIOTS ALL IN THE NAME OF GEORGE FLOYD.

AND THESE ARE HORRIBLE ACCIDENTS.

SO IN THE NAME OF ONE MAN, 20 OR MORE DIED DURING THESE RIOTS.

WE HAD BLACK BUSINESSES BURNED DOWN IN THE NAME OF BLACK LIVES MATTER.

WE HAD POLICE DEPARTMENTS BURNED DOWN FOR THE SAKE OF HELPING THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

AND I CAN'T IN ANY WAY LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE SUMMER AND SAY THIS WAS HELPFUL, THIS ENCOURAGED REFORM, THIS ENCOURAGED A HEALTHY CONVERSATION.

SO MUCH DESTRUCTION HAS BEEN DONE IN THE NAME OF THAT MAN, YET WE FOCUS MORE ON JANUARY 6 AND THE THOUSANDS OF LIVES THAT WERE RUINED BY THE GEORGE FLOYD RIOTS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO STOP -- TO SATISFY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT AND SO THAT THEY WILL STOP HAVING PROTESTS?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION, AND I THINK THERE IS NOTHING THAT YOU COULD DO TO SATIATE THE DESIRES OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT BECAUSE THEY CONTINUE TO RUN WITH THEIR NARRATIVE EVEN THOUGH IN SEVERAL CITIES THE POLICE HAVE BEEN DEFUNDED AND WE HAVE SEEN THE CHAOS THAT THAT'S BROUGHT ON, THE RISING IN CRIME.N IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU POINT OUT THE FLAWS IN THEIR NARRATIVE.

WHAT BLACK LIVES MATTER ADVOCATES FOR IS GOING TO DESTROY THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THE BLACK FAMILY.

THE VERY THINGS, THE VERY COMMUNITIES THAT THEY CLAIM TO BE WANTING TO HELP ARE THE ONES THAT WILL BE DECIMATED BY POLICIES THAT THE ADVOCATE FOR.

AND UNTIL THEY ARE IN COMPLETE POWER OF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING AND THEY SEE OUR INSTITUTIONS AND SYSTEMS EITHER COMPLETELY REFORMED OR ABOLISHED, THEY WILL NEVER BE HAPPY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WOULD YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE, LAST QUESTION, TO GET THIS COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER, IF ANYTHING?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: WHAT IT TRULY TAKES US ALL OF US SITTING DOWN AND SAYING WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS, INDIVIDUALS WITH DIFFERENT IDEALS.

THERE IS NO ATTACHMENT OF IDEAS BASED ON YOUR RACE, NO ATTACHMENT OF IDEAS BASED ON YOUR GENDER.

AND WAITING TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION AND IDENTIFY REALLY A COMMON ENEMY.

IF WE BOTH SAT DOWN ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT RIGHT NOW AND SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?

REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK OUR COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE OR WHAT YOU THINK OUR COUNTRY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, CAN WE AGREE THAT THE MEDIA IS LYING TO US AND THAT THESE CORPORATIONS ARE CREATING A WORLD WHERE THE AMERICAN DREAM IS NO LONGER GOING TO BE POSSIBLE?

AND CAN WE UNITE BEHIND THAT FIGHT AND GO AFTER THE CORPORATIONS, GO AFTER THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, GO AFTER THE GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO USURP OUR DAILY FREEDOMS WITH LOCKDOWNS AND MANDATES AND REGULATIONS?

IF WE FOUGHT THAT FIGHT TOGETHER, THAT WOULD DO A LOT FOR UNITY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IT'S FUNNY.

BUT UNTIL YOU GOT TO THE PART ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT MANDATES, YOU SOUNDED LIKE A LEFTIST, YOU KNOW, GOING AFTER THE CORPORATIONS THAT ARE MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO GET WHERE THEY WANT TO GET ECONOMICALLY AND THAT SORT OF THING.

SO DO YOU FEEL LIKE PART OF YOU HAS A BIT OF LEFTIST IDEOLOGY LEFT?

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I SAY THE LEFT HAS NOW SHIFTED.

THE LEFT USED TO BE THE ONES WHO WERE ANTIESTABLISHMENT, ANTI-CORPORATION.

NOW THEY ARE NO LONGER THAT.

HEY'RE VERY MUCH PRO CORPORATION.

THAT'S WHY ALL THESE CORPORATIONS RUN ALL THESE LEFTIST NARRATIVES AND CAMPAIGNS THROUGH THEIR ADS AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT DO YOU THINK -- IN NEW YORK CITY, ALL OF THOSE ANTI-OCCUPY WALL STREET DEMOS WERE ABOUT?

THEY WERE LEFTISTS PROTESTING AGAINST CORPORATE CONTROL OF TOO MANY ASSETS IN AMERICA.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: AND WE HAVE THE VERY SAME THING WITH CONSERVATIVES NOW WHO ARE FIGHTING AGAINST CORPORATIONS THAT HAVE UNBELIEVABLE POWER WERE UNREGULATED AND ARE PUSHING THESE CAMPAIGNS, LIKE I SAID.

AND JUST BECAUSE THAT WAS A LEFTIST VALUE AND THERE ARE STILL LEFTISTS THAT BELIEVE IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT CONSERVATIVES CAN'T BELIEVE THE SAME THING.

I THINK WE THINK TOO BLACK-AND-WHITE HERE AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M EXPRESSING, IS THAT WE CAN FIND COMMONALITY.

A LOT OF THINGS WE DISAGREE WITH IN THE THINGS WE BELIEVE, BUT BECAUSE WE ARE SO OBSESSED WITH TRIBALISM AND SAYING YOU ARE ON THE LEFT AND I CANNOT TALK TO YOU, YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT AND I WILL TALK TO YOU, YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO UNITE.

THERE'S NEVER BEEN A VERY EXCITING PLACE IN FRONT OF ME TO SAY, NO, DON'T, TALK TO ME.

IF YOU WANT TO TALK TO ME AND PROVE ME WRONG, BY ALL MEANS, DO THAT.

AM ALWAYS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AND I'VE GONE FROM BEING AN EXTREME RADICAL LEFTIST TO BEING WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE A MODERATE CONSERVATIVE.

IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO COME AND CHALLENGE SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE, BY ALL MEANS, AND HAVE THE CONVERSATION.

I INVITE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, AMALA, FOR YOUR TIME, FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: THANK YOU.

>> Bonnie Erbe: LET'S HOPE THAT MAYBE YOU CAN BUILD A MOVEMENT THAT STARTS PUTTING THIS COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER BEFORE IT CRUMBLES AND DIES.

>> Amala Ekpunobi: I HOPE SO.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL OF THE HATE BEING SPEWED ON BOTH SIDES.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION GOING ON TWITTER, ON FACEBOOK, ON INSTAGRAM AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TO THE CONTRARY WENT AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

[MUSIC] FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE EPISODE OF "TO THE CONTRARY," PLEASE VISIT OUR PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TOTHECONTRARY.